Paradox of Prayer

Let's say that me and my best friend are both devout "good" Christians. We're both unemployed and desperately in need of a job. We both apply for the only job opening for which either of us is qualified. The days leading up to the interviews, we both pray fervently to be hired. After the interview, the prayers only intensify. Eventually, she gets hired for the job.

Okay, that's pretty hypothetical, but I think it sets the mood a bit. If two people are both equally "good" and each prays as hard as the other, how does God choose which prayer to answer?

If he doesn't answer my prayers but instead answers someone's prayer in direct opposition to my own, how can he be considered a "loving" God? Wouldn't this show that he loves someone else more than he does me?

If your answer is, "it's all a plan," then how do you account for free will? Another thread mentions that God has many different plans based on a limited number of decisions but, if you look at it realistically, that rules out any plan at all. (remember the commercial in the early 80's...and she tells two friends...and they tell two friends...and they tell two friends...on and on ad nauseum). Eventually, there are too many "options" to come out to any predetermined conclusion.

Anyways, I was just wondering what people thought

 

Simple. There is no god. Prayer may make you feel better, but other than that it has no effect.

 

you are jumping from god not answering a prayer....to him not being a loving god.

just cause you don't get what you want from god, does not mean he does not love you.

i don't give my kids lots of stuff they ask for....but i still love them.

your debate was decent when it stayed on the topic of how does god choose between the two opposing prayers.

 

you think he has time to quibble about your damn job? she's got a universe to deal with

my god does not dabble in day to day activities. when evolution got rolling it said "I got things started now you're on your own. I'll be watching, see you later."

most logical concept of a god was in the george burns movie "oh god" 'cept mine doesn't smoke a big stinky stogie

 

If you're a kid, and you ask your mom for a cookie, and she says "No," is she still a loving mom?

What if there's one cookie left, and you and your sister are both asking for it, and your sister gets it after YOU asked first. Is she still a loving mom?

What if your sister got the cookie because she just got an A on her spelling test? How about then?

What if your sister got the cookie because they're sugar-free cookies and your sister's a diabetic?

What if YOU got the cookie... and then your little sister started to cry?



In the above example, there's "kid logic" and "adult logic". Kid logic says, I want a cookie! Adult logic says, Lots of sugar in cookies, too close to dinner, will make the kid too hyper to finish his homework, and lots of other things, taking into account variables and parts of the equation that the kid just doesn't see, and is still too young to understand.



In relation to your example: there comes a point where you just have to trust in God... or not... but either way, understand that the logic being applied to a situation is not going to be *your* logic, is not going to be 'kid' logic, but is going to be beyond your (/my/their/our) comprehension. I mean, c'mon, it's GOD, okay? He/she/they are 'bigger' than us, by definition, and of COURSE is going to make the decision based on factors we don't see or understand.



The thing is, faith is not something that can have logic applied to it, because faith "makes sense" to the believer in ways that have nothing to do with logic.



Maybe your friend who got the job... needs it more than you. Deserves it more than you. Maybe it's really a sucky job and you're BETTER OFF not getting it, no matter how desperately you think you need it. Maybe there's *another* job lurking just around the corner, which you would love but your friend would hate. Or maybe you'll learn something profound from being unemployed that no other experience could have taught you...



Humans are linear. God is not. Therein lies the contradiction - and the answer.



=c.

 

Bwahahahahaha, my plan is working!

As for the answer, I agree with Rich 100%. God has nothing to do with the entire situation; the person doing the hiring made a decision and you didn't get the job. No more and no less. There was no influence by a divinity, unless you believe that HR managers all over the country get visits from the Supreme Being on hiring day. I've yet to hear anyone in personnel say "Well, we were going to hire Bob, but God told me he was the Anti-Christ last night while I was watching "Friends" so I had to hire Joe instead."

 

Okay, just let me state for the record that the opinions stated or implied in the original post are not necessarily my own. This question (or something similar...which I hope to bring the discussion around to slowly) was brought up in a class. I was curious what "normal" people would say about it. The class is full of die-hard Christians. Not that I have anything against Christians. My problem with some of these people is that they can't seem to see outside their narrow view of the world. People who don't see religion from their viewpoint are just wrong. There's no debate...no arguments....they're right and everyone else is wrong and therefore going to burn in Hell forever. It's a fun class for someone who likes to start trouble

So, that said, let's change the example and see what you guys say.

Let's say that instead of two friends going for the same job, we have two countries fighting for the same territory (too many political things to bring the whole Israel thing in...but imagine something like that). God lets one country wipe the other one out, killing thousands of people. How does He choose which country should win?

If He's omniscient and omnipotent, why doesn't He do anything to stop innocents from being killed? If he's indifferent, then what good does it do to worship Him?

If he lets so many innocent people die, then how does that make him a loving God? Surely a loving God would at least stop some of the people from suffering.
(sorry jigmoore, I agree that my earlier post didn't flow to this point logically. I think this might be a bit better although still not quite there).

cinderella, what made you say that God isn't linear? I'm not trying to start an argument by any means, it's just that the non-linear idea is a very Eastern concept. Time and space are concepts that are very different in Eastern and Western philosophies/religions. I know some of the people on the Christian TV channel mention it sometimes, but I don't think they've quite understood it in the same way as say Buddhism does.

 

I dunno about Eastern or Western philosophies. I only know MY OWN personal relationship with Deity. Which may or may not be applicable to anyone else, I freely admit. All I can do is pass along my own perspectives, in the hopes that others may find them useful, either to support their own arguments or even to give them something to say that THEIR personal relationship with Deity definitely is NOT.

Hunt around a little on this board, and you'll see me mention my own "born-again" type experience in which I had a fleeting glimpse of The Way Everything Really Is. In those few moments, I beheld a universe that was decidedly chaotic, in which "time" and other linear concepts were purely constructs of and for humanity, with no analog in the greater Is... and yet there was most definitely a structure to it all, what we might call a Plan, though not any plan as we would understand it. What we call "logic" is laughably simplistic, in that Greater Place. I'm not sure that words exist to adequately portray what I felt and 'saw', nor that my human-brain-constrained memory of the event is clear enough to craft a proper description even if there were words for it. But I do know - in the parameters of my own understanding of Deity - that "God's Plan" is far, far more complex than we can ever understand it to be.

I could name a couple examples in my own life, of choices I made that were definitely not within "the plan" and yet suited it magnificently. But I really am trying to get some work done, here. Ask me again after Barber, and I'll tell you about it, if you care.

=c.

 

dude you need to skip that class and quit thinking so much... or take something worthwhile... conduct a marketing analysis of Hooters' uniforms or study the support structure of Wonderbras or examine the social interaction of women wearing thongs

 

Go Mongo!!!

Shawn's answer would pretty much reflect mine.

God has the "big" picture in mind whereas we decide things based upon what we can see.----The issue of trusting God comes into play here.

I came to that conclusion after, ironically, that exact thing you described happened to me about 5 years ago: two Christians unemployed (I was one of them). One got a great job...I didn't.

I was urinated off at God for a couple of years over that until I realized that, at the time, me working was not as important as looking after my mother who was living with us at the time. Once Mom died, "doors opened" and opportunities for me came about, including this chaplaincy with WERA. I was too immature a human being to see that at the time. In retrospect it makes perfect sence to me. Mom was cared for, I grew up some, and then came the opportunities......God, looking at the big picture, was preparing me for something. when I was ready, it came about.

This isn't predestination (which I don't buy anyway. God loves all of us whether we love him or not) It's the old principle of luck being "preparation awaiting opportunity".

 

YamaBob...ummm..being female, I'm not exactly as interested in women in thongs as you are. I can appreciate a beautiful woman as much as the next person, but I don't really feel an urgent need to surround myself with them

And as for the class...well...I just like stirring up interesting discussions. I'm what most would call a non-religious person (not so true once you get to know me), who is absolutely fascinated with religion...ALL religions. So for me, this class rocks!

Chaplain,
I've always loved reading your responses, but I have to say that this one puzzles me. How is it that God has a plan for us, but there is no predestination? If there is some sort of plan, wouldn't that imply that God has some control over what we do in our lives, which, taken to the logical conclusion, would mean that there is at least a limited form of predestination?

Cinderella, I said this on another thread and I'll say it again, you should REALLY look into some of the Eastern religions. I'm not saying you have to believe any of them, but I think you'd be very surprised at the parallels of your beliefs with some of them. Hinduism and Taoism (especially Taoism) say very similar things to what you've said.

 

good question

Excellent question..and I like your questions and responses as well......makes me think.

God does have a direction for your lives.......however we DO have choices. God does not force his way down our throats. We can choose to follow God, we can choose not to follow God. It is the classic paradox of theology that has been discussed for generations.......God's will vs Free Will.....there's a place for both. We have to find that place individually however. The dividing line for me may be different than it is for others.


ave a good weekend!!

 

As a doctor, I take great exception to this. The more you know about the human body, the more you KNOW it is NOT an ACCIDENT.

 

Sorry Doc, but you "know" nothing of the sort.

Complexity in an organism isn't proof of a supreme being.

 

You are right it isn't. But i don't think that the heart, lungs, brain, and the body's ability to heal itself is an accident either.

 

Well next time you are giving thanks to your creator for making self-healing bodies could you make a suggestion that next time around He/She does a little better job? Start with a redesign of the knees and then maybe have the male urethra not thread its way through the prostate.

oh, I forgot, we brought those troublesome problems on through Original Sin. Our fault.

 

Sorry about your luck. Seems reasonable to blame your genetic mutations on the creator.

Maybe if your parents were living with more virtue.

 

Yeah perhaps. I'm glad they weren't really bad sinners then or else God might have given me any number of fatal or debilitating diseases.