Hey Mongo...

Proposal

I would like to submit a proposal to the floor than Charles buy back the EMC. All in favor say "Aye"

Aye

 

Definitely AYE!! :up:

 

AYE.... and I would love to throw a leg over it to help getting it sorted out... (Charles)

 

Details??????

 

That task is already spoken for.

 

UPDATE:

I would love to take it for a few laps just to get a time on a really cool and significant 2-stroke bike.

 

Jim's a man of few, select words.

 

Yes but can you corner low, that's the thing...

 

and only if you can corner low...

 

Bike porn...whore!!

 

Hey Mongo,
I have another rules question. You allowed the Ascot into V-2 last year. Will that also include the XL500s from 79-82? But not allow the RFVC XL500 because it was an entirely different engine. The reason I ask is that I have a couple of the XLs that would work good for V-2 and are almost done, but if they won't be allowed in V-2, then I will put 17" wheels on them, but if they are allowed in V-2 then I will use the 18" wheels for them. If you don't allow the XL when you will allow the FT then I am going to make a big stink about it, pout and tell everybody that you are mean and I have the e-mails. Then I will stick the 18" wheels on my Ascot and race that. This really is about me and I don't think that any decision you make will change any grid sizes or entice any new racers out. I just want to use my XL.

Ken

 

Bro Ken:

You can bring it out if you get rid of the god-awful ugly front fender. It's a disgrace and did I say it is ugly? And no knobby tires, please. By the way, does this motor have tappets and a front chain that require adjustment every ten minutes?

Don't ever threaten Mongo, he has lawyers and guns. Mainly guns.

 

I resemble that remark.

 

Entering the Fray

Usually I'd just sit back and watch the drama unfold, and hope to learn from the debate. But this is one I think I need to make a few points on.

Some of you know me, but most probably don't. I starting racing mid-2009 with a RZ I'd built myself, and have spent the last year and a half getting it and me sorted out. I had no previous race experience and no one around to help me build the bike, so I pored over the rulebook and built one specifically for Formula Two Stroke following all the rules. I am ex-military and an engineer so have some experience interpreting rules and specifications. So here's my observations of the rules.....

First my bike is 100% legal by the rules, it actually has the original frame, engine, transmission, and cylinders from where I dug it out of the scrap pile. It is stock stroke, and is just on second overbore at 64.50. SO if I had an agenda it would be to limit everyone else to stock components to level the playing field for me as I continue to learn. But I don't interpret the rules as saying that.

Correct me where I'm wrong.....

Formula two-stroke is a superbike based class. It says that nowhere, but I've heard it from many. Engine modifications are allowed as per chap 9. Chapter 9 has superstock, superbike, and endurance. If F2S were superstock, I haven't seen a bike yet on the grid that would be legal. If I'm wrong, let me know so I can mount the stock airbox again.... Plus us two-strokers would be handicapped by the statement on internal and external engine components saying no removal of metal is allowed, what no porting? Blasphemy! Superbike starts off with the words: "can be changed or modified to any degree" and then "the original combination of engine and frame must be maintained". But hybrids are allowed as long as you use a frame of the permitted type. I see nothing there that says you can't use aftermarket cylinders.

Back to the F2S section: "Bikes with a displacement limit following it in the class rules cannot use these overbores, the listed displacement is absolute". Ok that's a displacement limit, no argument. But the RZ doesn't have it listed, so is listed to a maximum of 0.060" overbore. That is most certainly a BORE limit. It would only be a displacement limit if you assumed you maintained stock stroke. I see that nowhere.

The rules are ambiguous on several points. And you can't expect Joe Farmer from Iowa building a bike in his barn to just realize what you mean. It has to say, in black and white what the limits are. Several important points are simply not addressed.

OK, let the thrashing begin........

 

Dave,

F2s is not a superbike bases class, its "Formula" based...

"(or any subsection of a class that specifies “Formula Rules”) Have no restrictions other than displacement, fuel limits as outlined in Chapter 8, and configuration as outlined below."

Superbike based would not include purpose built Gp bikes..H2r's, Tr's, Tz's etc..

 

Good points, I am considering the cheetah cub route myself. I was not in a position to put out the money this past year so kept mine mostly stock (kind of). I am out HP'ed in V5, and for that reason I either need more ponies or just deal with racing for second or third. But, V5 is my bump up class, I can't expect to bump into a faster class and be able to beat the bikes meant for that class. I would like to, but can't expect to. My porting is pretty good, but nowhere near modern. I will make some improvements for this year, but will be running stock RZ cylinders.

I drool over bikes like Charles is running, I sit and wonder just how fast I could be on something like that, the clouds part, the angls sing, all is right with the world..... then i wake up.

Now we all have Mark to chase. He is pretty big for a rabbit. (I think I can catch him.)

 

True But.....

Scott, yeah I probably misused the term "superbike based".... certainly it is a formula class, which specifies engine and frame combinations, wheels, suspension, brakes, etc.... But it clearly states engine modifications as per chapter 9..... just which section applies? Endurance certainly doesn't. Superstock doesn't, that's not the intent of the class. If they mean certain sections I'd like to know which ones. That just leaves superbike, and every subsection under it doesn't apply, so that just leaves the first three sentences.

If the argument is for some portion of superstock.... we all have to start over with our bikes. Just saying. The rules leave a lot to guesswork.......

 

Just think of the drafting opportunities!

 

I'm gonna need all the help I can get.

Merry Christmas everybody.

 

I muse over the posts being written on this thread...some excellent points, especially by Digger 3 (Dave, is that you?)...as we all should know, yes, there are inconsistencies and ill-defined sections/descriptions in the rules. Some things are perfectly clear, some things are not. I have yet to find many written things that can't be interpreted in different ways. This is why God created the attorney, so more confusion could be strewn about, thus giving said attorneys life-long job security! Getting back to Formula 2-Stroke, permit me to be candid here, no matter what the consequence: anyone who knows me understands my skill is limited and I won't be winning many races (although perhaps just one or two every other decade?). So most of the thoughts I have are concerned with building vintage racing up, not seeking personal advantage. The email petition I wrote to WERA (which for the most part is written in this thread, post #35) was for the purpose of making Formula 2-Stroke more expansive, actually following the lead of AHRMA which recently created a brand new 'Formula Vintage' class by including some big 2-strokes, and that should provide some very interesting racing (are you hearing me Timmy?). Now I don't expect to see that AHRMA thing duplicated in WERA vintage, but you know, we could use some more 2-Strokes out on the grid. So that of course leads to the issues of performance, in that all bikes are not equal, nor their riders. What are we to do? This situation regarding aftermarket parts currently available for the RZ350, to enhance both performance and durability, reminds me of the similar arguments that raged on years ago in vintage/classic circles about the Norton Manx. The purists wanted things as they were, as they were made by the manufacturer so many decades ago. The 'modernists' argued that no one in their right mind would take a pristine OEM Norton Manx and race it due to costs, diminution of market value, and lagging performance. So clever lads with deep pockets created aftermarket parts to make the Norton Manx competitive again and basically brought it back from the grave. This is not to say that there aren't OEM Manxes racing somewhere in the vintage world, this is to say that the Manxes with aftermarket parts (and techniques) will be racing longer and faster....which leads me back to the present, and future: as far as the RZ350 is concerned, the future is with the use of the various aftermarket parts, for the sound reasons of both performance and durability...and in some cases, savings- no specialized porting needed (use the money for something else like more entries). No need to search for used parts, or pay exorbitant prices for OEM/NOS, if you are lucky enough to find what you need. And I might add that since 2001, at least not in the SE Region, I haven't seen any bone-stock OEM with-a-tune (carbs and pipes) type RZ350 on the grid. Am I wrong about this observation? The ones I've seen had extensive mods, both motor and chassis. Could it be that we have seen the end of the days of production racing with the few 2-strokes remaining that are being raced, or being prepared to be raced? By this I mean that it would be highly unlikely that we will see anyone show up on the grid with a carbs-and-pipes-only RZ350 that looks just like it did when it rolled off of the assembly line. And here we are back to the Norton Manx argument of so many years ago...which direction do you favor?

Now back to Formula 2-Stroke as a class. It is the only dedicated 2-Stroke class. There are bikes out there race-ready, or capable of being race-ready, that could be in this class. Do we continue to exclude them, either by specific written directive, or by non-inclusion (confusion)? I asked for consideration of the Suzuki RG500, mysteriously vanished (special rendition?) from the class, and the TZ750 in any format. I mean, fellas, how many of them will we see, if there are a few around that want to come out, why not have them in Formula 2-Stroke on Saturday? And/or V5? Oh yes, well I did in afterthought mention also the lightweight EMC/Harris Rotax 250 (with IoM history) that I could buy back from its present owner.

Comments are welcome!