Endurance Points by Class?

Discussion in 'WERA National Endurance Series' started by t11ravis, Aug 30, 2012.

  1. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

    Okay, next upload it'll be right. Might be Monday tho.
  2. ethridge72

    ethridge72 Well-Known Member

    Gotta bitch about something! :)
  3. couch

    couch Well-Known Member

    Unlikely to ever happen... but I love this idea.
  4. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

    It'd be fun to try but not sure the boss would take the gamble. We've done shorter Endurances and they just don't draw like you think they would. Even the solos with all the extra track time don't draw like you'd think they would. I've come to the conclusion that most sprint racers aren't really logical :D

    Definitely something to look into though.
  5. mperussault

    mperussault Well-Known Member

    The point is that Sprint racers would get a chance to race a 45 minutes race just like an AMA race and that has to have some interest and should be promoted as such (and be the only one in town to offer that). At the same time on a typical endurance race week there is a practice on Friday: so how many Sprint racers practice on Friday and do absolutely nothing on Saturday (meaning not spending any race entry fees). On top of that you may get Sprint racers that would otherwise show up on Sunday morning only, now suddenly show up for the Friday practice and the 45 min timed race. (I assume that you have the data to analyze this and put a % and $ attached to it).

    I know this is a lot of downstream work (update rulebook, update websites, points / results , forms etc), but if you do not try anything new, not much will happen. Once in a while you have to re-invent things and be better than the other guys (CCS and others). Just trying to help.
  6. Scott Harwell

    Scott Harwell Well-Known Member

    a quote from a very good man who ran a top notch racing program..

    "You either get bigger or you get smaller but you never stand still"

    Bill France Jr
    Fmr. NASCAR President..

    If you don't try new things you will never know.
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2012
  7. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

    Okay seriously, are you guys new to WERA or something? :D We do change, constantly. We have tried races of the length suggested and a couple of other lengths both longer and shorter.

    We have longer races already - the Solos. We have tried longer than that - 50 milers (not as popular). The sprint riders aren't like you guys, they don't want more laps. No, I don't know why, I just know every time we've tried something longer it fails. Every time. Solo 20's are about as long as we can go and succeed. No matter how it's promoted.

    Again - they do not think like you do. Endurance racers are different from sprint racers. Go talk to them and you'll see what I mean. It's strange but it is still true.

    Now - that being said. We absolutely will consider the idea and we will look at it. Just as we do every idea good or bad.
  8. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

    The Bill France quote is funny considering the only thing they've changed in decades is the chase for the championship and the COT (messing with a winning formula is as stupid as not being willing to change when you need to) :D
  9. regularguy

    regularguy Always Krispy

    no love for the LW endurance bikes??

    put them behind one of the groups and increase the revenue. Also, $200 might be a bit steep.
  10. rwood64083

    rwood64083 Gifted as in 'DUHHHH'

    My opinion means squat so take it for what it's worth. I'm wrapping up my second year of racing (with absolutely no previous track experience). Last year I ran vintage V7 sprints and Solo 20s at every SE round... that coupled with a few endurance rounds. This year I continue to run all V7 sprints, dropped the Solo 20s and picked up SenSB... ran one endurance race on George's team and recently started my own endurance team.

    Now, I like the opportunity to do both. Sprints and Endurance. Solo 20s gave me the opportunity to gain a lot more experience as did the few endurance rounds. But every Solo I ran wore me out. I try to take into consideration I am/was racing a slower bike than most (96 F3) in the Solos and my age is also a determining factor. I don't know the answer to any of the questions but can tell you Sprints, no matter what the amount of laps/length of track, and Solo 20... I can wear out. I've talked to a lot of the guys that run Solo races and consensus is similar... when we see the flag fly for the halfway point the first thought is 'cmon, that's only 8 or 10 laps?" Then most of us can't wait for the rest of the race to be done.

    What makes running a Solo or a longer-than-sprint race different from an hour stint during an endurance race? I think the answers different for everybody. For me, it's relaxation. I associate it with running. When I run short distances sprinting I can move pretty fast but it wears me out. But I enjoy long distance endurance running (not jogging). I settle my pace down a bit and can run a full marathon without much practice. I think sprint racers 'give it their all' and take more chances and risks during their race chasing down personal points and/or trophy. I think endurance racers 'give it their all' also but take the idea of trying to relax into consideration way more than sprint racers. And when all is said and done, the endurance racer is turning close to the same times as he or she was during their sprint races. I was absolutely shocked at the fact I was only 2/10s of a second slower on my SV (with bad front suspension, less than perfect front brakes, pump fuel and learning GP shift for the first time) than my fastest lap at Tally last year on the F3. Point is, although I'm still wound up and trying to do my best during an endurance race I relax more.

    What ever the higher WERA powers-that-be decide to do in regards to modifying or changing the race weekends and classes to run, I'm good with it. And I'd be curious seeing different racing options. All I know is right now I'm content racing the sprints I'm racing and will continue to run the endurance rounds so you yahoos have contingency money :D
  11. couch

    couch Well-Known Member

    I'm not a NASCAR guy but to say Bill France didn't make changes to the Series or the sport misses a few things... and misses Scott's point to WERA...

    I offer the following... in Bill Jr's tenure...NASCAR went from a Southern regional sport to a national sport.... he is almost singly handedly responsible for the growth of the Daytona 500 stock car race and Daytona 200 motorcycle race at Daytona... it's popularity and lasting reputation internationally. I think he also launched the "Winston Million" program which also increased the participation and popularity of the sport... something particulary applicable to WERA. If you look at CCS as an example, people race for money... doesn't have to be a million dollars... a hundred gets the attention of most. We've only been to a couple CCS races this season but have been handed checks at every one... it's meaningful.

    ...and almost as good as the BBS, Bill launched NASCAR.com.

    Scott, I understood your point.
  12. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

    Oh good lord you guys really are just looking for things to get pissed off at me about aren't you? I got Scotts point. I also have addressed that we have made changes, pretty drastic ones in how we do things this year. I was joking around about NASCAR - especially since Bill hasn't been in direct charge for the time period I mentioned. If you want to compare apples to apples then I suggest you start looking at changes WERA has made over the last 40 years, not just the few years you've been involved.

    We did pay purses - just a couple years ago. We stopped and guess what, Solo entries actually went up slightly.

    We paid purses in Endurance and it did nothing for turnouts. We stopped and it made our losses for the events less so that we could continue them.

    You know John, you really need to get over whatever the hell bug it is you have up your ass about me and try actually reading what I post. You also might want to try talking to people who have been around longer and know what we have or haven't tried before you start jumping to conclusions about WERA or how Evelyne runs her company. This whole thread is ridiculous and insulting and just gets more so. You keep coming up with things we're doing wrong when we've tried them - some quite recently - and then complaining we're not trying things. You've complained about not being able to meet with us yet you weren't at Talladega and evidently not at Road Atlanta either (we were off running another WERA event) - so when could we meet? Should we drive up to DC just to be told how wrong we're running WERA?

    I really don't know what your problem is. I have been joking around this Sunday morning on what for normal people would be a day off and I get nothing but grief. Why is that? That is a serious question too. I would love to know exactly what it is I am doing that has some of you so totally pissed off at me that you are ignoring the reality of what WERA does or doesn't do, what I do or don't do, what I do or don't actually post.
  13. couch

    couch Well-Known Member

    I do love your responses... it definitely keeps folks coming back to the BBS... I'm not sure what the confusion is about "the bug up my ass"... I think your responses to customer feedback typically ignores the feedback and is condescending... you've told me that it's how you treat "family"... ok... I'm not sure it helps to run a customer service business but if you think it does... ok... I'm glad we're not "family"

    Sorry the request for a meeting is annoying... again, just ideas and customer feedback from people trying to help you be successful... not just me but a number of "loyal customers"... I apologize for annoying you.

    To be clear... I offered to provide a purse myself. You appeared uninterested. I offered to provide WERA with a PR agent at my expense... you were uninterested. I offered to help with website production, management, and maintenance... again, you're uninterested... I offered to produce shirts for you to sell (bike shirts, race shirts, etc)... again, you're uninterested... but don't do any of those things yourself.

    The "bug up my ass" is watching WERA's reputation erode... I'm sure you don't think that's true... and that's ok.... it's your business and none of mine obviously. My mistake is becoming passionate about the sport and WERA's place in it.

    I don't like your attitude... not at all... I'm sure you have fans in the paddock but I haven't met any. You apparently don't like my attitude either... this mutual feeling may be the only thing we can agree on... you clearly are confused and annoyed by our desire to help... so let me make it easy... I'm done.

    You all are way to smart for feedback, advice, or assistance.

    Enjoy your day off... sorry for the interuption.
  14. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

    See that's my point exactly - the issue is what you're reading not what I'm actually typing.

    Where have I ignored feedback? If saying "we have tried that" is condescending then I guess I don't understand the meaning of the word.

    I have never once said that meeting would be annoying - I have however brought up the reasons why it hasn't happened. Which mainly include not being in the same place at the same time due to both of our businesses - which is something I noticed you didn't mention in your initial complaints so I thought I would remind you of that fact.

    You have not talked to me about your ideas on shirts and the like, you have talked to Evelyne and she has told you about the deals we have with others across the country. I don't know the outcome of your conversations as they haven't been with me - but I guess it's easier to blame me than to actually admit you were dealing with Evelyne on pretty much everything you've done with WERA.

    You have evidently offered to take over aspects of WERA that we aren't willing to give anyone control over. It's not you, it's anyone. We won't give up control of the website any more than we'd let someone write the rules or set the schedule that isn't working in the office.

    I do so love people blaming my attitude for them not listening to facts or knowing the history of what WERA has and hasn't done. So the reason you will not listen to what I am saying is because no one likes me. Got it. I find that very interesting given you don't actually deal with me on anything other than here do you? You deal with Evelyne.

    Easier to blame the big asshole than the person people actually trust and like and understand knows what she's doing isn't it?
  15. couch

    couch Well-Known Member

    Seriously Sean... no response is necessary... no one, especially me, is trying to "control" WERA. I have no dog in this hunt... nothing to sell... nothing to influence... we've only tried to help... as have others.

    Our not listening to facts or understanding history is not the problem (or even accurate)... and there's no need to even debate the real problem... especially in a BBS string on an Endurance Forum.

    My not liking your attitude is irrelevent. I'm not interested in a debate over what was said and to who... or a word for word historical analysis of your responses to customers or to me. Like everything, you'll interpret my feedback the way you want too... and this makes it a waste of both of our days off... though it might be good for BBS ratings.
  16. fullmetalF4i

    fullmetalF4i C. Lee #826

    i'd be interested in a race as described earlier, but i know that i shared the thoughts randy described in seeing the half way flag during a solo and thinking "damn this is a long time to be getting my tail kicked"
    I would definatetly do one of those races once. depending on how it went, would maybe do it again, maybe not.
    Also agree that leaving the LW bikes out is a mistake. I think some of those guys are more serious about endurance racing than the other two classes sometimes...
  17. Gorilla

    Gorilla Let me push on that bitch

  18. mperussault

    mperussault Well-Known Member

    Hey Sean, can you please erase the whole thread.
  19. couch

    couch Well-Known Member

    Agreed... I second the request... thanks Michel.
  20. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

    I don't erase threads, good bad or indifferent. It's like conversations in the paddock, they happen and they don't go away. At least here people can see what is being said about them and respond to it.

    As for BBS ratings, there is no such thing so I'm not sure why they're being brought up.

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