Ducati 748 vs. Suzuki SV 650

The WERA rulebook specifically excludes the Ducati 748 from lightweight twins competition. The reason being the bike is too fast in spite of being within the class guidelines.
Currently Suzuki SV 650's are leading the lightweight twins expert and novice categories in seven out of ten regions.
In light of the fact that the Ducati's design is now several years old and Suzuki's SV now benefits from numerous aftermarket enhancements, does anyone see the 748's inclusion into the class as a possibility?

 

Anything is possible but unless people start building their SV's to the class limits the inclusion of the 748 is still a little ways off. The problem is that the SV's currently running are not close to 600cc times while the 748 is. It is allowed to run any of the C and above classes as well as HW Twins so it's not like the machine doesn't have a place to race where it can be competitive.

 

I think AMA rules forbid them because of their Desmo valve design.

 

Byron, what are you trying to do to me? Please don't make my kids go hungry by making me buy a new 748.

 

AMA rules forbid 'em because they were scared they'd spoil the party in the MW SS class (now called 600). At the time ('96) they were romping through the FIM Euro equivalant. So the AMA changed the rules (and the name of the class) to disallow twins in 600 SS and keep the japanese manuf.'s happy.......(just wouldn't do to have some Italian company beating up on what is the largest selling class the big 4 make).

Charlie Mc #90

 

hey Charlie
how are you feeling I know them ribs have to be hurting Mine still hurt and its been about 6weeks. are you going to make any more races this year. get better soon
later Ricky

 

Nothing hurting too bad at the moment due to better living through chemicals - I'll let you know in a week when I've reached the bottom of pill bottle
Doc says I *might* make the GNF...

Charlie Mc #90

 

get well soon CharlieM

 

:0 GO CHARLIE

 

Sean quotes, "SV's that are currently running are not close to 600 times while the 748 is".

Search your own race records for the National Challenge Series for the past two years. Do you see any 748's racing in the 600 class? I didn't. Just where are you getting your times from?

Sean quotes, "748's are allowed to run any of the C Classes as well as HW twins so its not like the machine doesn't have a place to race where it can be competitive".

Again, search your own race records for the National Challenge Series for the past two years. Three entries by 748's in heavytwins.
At AMS this year, 8th out of 8. At Summit Point last year, 3rd of 3. At Texas World Speedway last year, 9th of 9. Not exactly my idea of a competitive showings.

My point is fairness.

Is it fair to outlaw the Ducati 748 from lightweight twins, a class wherein the bike meets all the rulebook requirements? The Duc 748 has roughly a 20 horsepower advantage over the Suzuki SV 650 and it weighs roughly 40 pounds more. For this the Duc gets outlawed.
The new Suzuki 750 has roughly a 20 horsepower advantage over anything in its class and it's lighter than anything in it's class. For this the Suzuki gets banned? Uh, er, ahem, choke, no, thats called innovation.
The double standard is alive and well.

WERA's ban on the Ducati 748 in lightweight twins is both arbitrary and capricious. It should be rescinded. The playing field should be level for all manufacturers and the riders who choose to support them.

 

Okay - just for fun here are some facts about the 748...

Right now a Ducati 748 is in 4th place in the World Supersport standings, a 600cc four cylinder based class. Not enough for you? Okay, check out http://www.superbike.it/ssp/stats/index.html
and take a close look at track records, numbers of pole postitions and heck, all of the stat's. They all point to one inescapable conclusion - the 748 is very, very competitive with 600cc four cylinder machines, a couple of years ago it was dominant. Now, that may not be enough for you but it was more than enough for me to realize that this machine has no place racing against Honda Hawks in LW Twins when we made the class and as yet the SV650 has not proven to be drastically faster than the Hawks were. Until such a point as the field in LW Twins reaches the level of the 748 it will not be allowed in the class.

To address your points about which classes the 748 is or isn't competitve in - nowhere do I write that it is, just that it can be. Something you need to consider when looking through the results is the rider, put Lee Acree on a SS spec 748 and he'll run up front in the 600 class, put me on Lee's current 600 - a proven race winning machine - and the result would be less than stellar. My job when determining legality is to look at the utmost potential of the machine assuming fast riders. Just because the riders currently riding 748's are not fast does not mean the bike is slow, it just means that it is slow with them on it.

LW Twins was designed specifically for inexpensive club racing twins, originally the Hawk was the main bike with the EX being a close second, now the SV is the main bike with the Hawk a close second - as you say, it's innovation. As for one other point you make - the 748 does not meet all of the rules for LW Twins, as a matter of fact it fails to meet a very import line of the LW Twins rules - specifically, "-No Ducati 748, no 125cc GP machines". The rules must be read as a whole, it doesn't work to pick them apart and only use the parts that suit you.

One point you make that I totally agree with is that performance indexing the 748 out of LW Twins is arbitrary, it definitely is but then again, that is the nature of a rulebook...

One helpful hint when arguing for or against anything in the rulebook - never assume that I pull rules out of thin air or that I listen to just one group of riders. I do as much research as I can and take into account many different factors when evaluating what machinery to allow into a class (including the postential of the machines when developed to the class limits, rider skill if the machine is currently being raced, and most importantly - what was the original reason for developing the class in the first place). Keep in mind also one very important thing - it makes absolutely no difference to WERA what bikes are competitive. We get nothing more or less no matter who wins, all we want is good clean, competitive racing and to provide an environment for our customers to enjoy themselves as safely as possible.

 

I do agree with the exclusion of the 748 from the lite twins. Reason being purely financial. I am one of the many hobbie racers that are on a very tight budget, having to compete with the $10thou plus bikes would have me at an early retirement. I thank WERA for having such relatively inexpensive class for more of us to compete in. Thank you very much, I'll be quite now.

 

The SV is allowed superbike mods in that class. A SV700 superbike built by speedwerks for CCS makes 90+ hp at the rear wheel. The reason you don't see these bikes in WERA (yet) is that the SV is limited to SS in D-Superbike, and building a bike for one class is generally not done. (In CCS, the LW Superbike rules are different, allowing FZR560 machines and superbike SVs).

See Sean? One more reason to keep that D-Super "SV SS" rule!! ::grin::

- Roach

 

If anyone has ridden an SV and 748 back to back they will agree the Duc has no business in the LW Twins class. Al Goodwin has won like 12 races this season on his SV and a stock 748 will leave his bike for dead. I work at Dixie Sports Plus (shameless plug) and have ridden them back to back.

 

And if anyone has ever ridden an SV and a Hawk or EX back-to-back, they'd agree that the SV has no business in the LW Twins class.

Double standard at work here, doncha' think?

Charlie Mc #90

 

Alright Charlie - back to the 2 stroke thing - only one class rules argument per racer per season

 

As long as Suzuki moves the contingency money and points to D-Superbike, this is true. I called and 'suggested' this, so I'm really pulling for it.

Otherwise, next year, I'm building up my SV to 700cc, with a GSXR front end, and kicking the crap out of everyone in LW Solo, F2, LW Twins, and having a go at HW Twins.

Who cares about D-Super, when the real money lies elsewhere?!

Man, am I grinding axes today or what?![See: 'Let the whining begin']

 

Sean,

http:www.roadracingworld.com/roadracingworld/issues/mar00/sv.htm

"Mark Ledesma rode a Suzuki SV 650 to a podium finish in the final AMA Pro Thunder race of the 1999 season, at Pike's Peak last September".

Don't you think that this would be a more relevant argument as to whether the SV 650 can compete with the Ducati 748 than your argument? You state the 748 can compete in FIM Supersport and therefore should not be competing with the SV 650. You left out an important fact....how many SV 650's have attempted to run FIM Supersport? None, therefore making your argument invalid.

The cost of a new SV 650, $5,600., plus necessary mods, $3,500., amounts to about the price of a two or three year old Ducati 748. So there is no huge cost differential.

I've never ridden an SV 650 but I did have the pleasure of seeing Al Goodwin's back tire flying by me, in two separate races this season, while on my Duc 916. So I will agree that certain riders can overcome thier machines horsepower deficits. (I hate to embarass myself to make a point .

Were 748's ever allowed to compete in lightweight twins to test your theory, Sean?
If they were did they quickly lead seven of the ten regions? Your arguments for this ban are weak. I think it is bad policy to penalize new technoloy in order to preserve the aging hawk, that's why we have vintage classes.

 

And just where is _that_ in the rule book Mr. Smartypants?

Besides....I'm running out of Percocet and I'm getting cranky.

 

Charlie - it's in the small print that your drug addled mind can't see at this point

Steve - don't go to far on the buildup, at least if you don't want a separate motor for the GNF... Suzuki Cup rules for the SV are stock front end, DOT's (like that matters, 74hp and 360 pounds.

Bryon - if the SV is fast enough to beat your 916 why not buy and SV? Seriously though - if you look at this years results the best that same rider has fared on what is an even more developed bike is 4th at Laguna and that was after a couple of the top riders on 748's dropped out. At Mid-Ohio an SV built up to 750cc finished 7th. After that the top finishing SV has been an 8th in the rain at Loudon - slightly different that the one race in 99.

My quoting the FIM stats had nothing to do with comparing the SV to the 748, it was strictly in regard to your questioning my assertion that the 748 would be competitive in the C classes and nothing more. You asked where I got my figures and I told you. Sorry if they didn't turn out the way you were hoping they would.

One final thing - I'm done on this one, you can play with stats and figures and quote whatever you like but it will not change that I and everyone else at WERA feel that for right now a 748 is still too fast for LW Twins. I've explained thoroughly how we came to that conclusion - you obviously disagree and being slgihtly biased towards the 748 will never agree with us so there is no point in continuing this thread.

Will it be allowed at some point - almost definitely but not right now and not this season.