costs: high spec motoA twins cup vs supersport

Rider skills / experience aside, can someone shed some light for me as to why twins cup is considered more cost effective even though the class is essentially an “open” class ? Doesnt that just mean the potential for deep spend is there, even if it isnt being utilized ? Or am I missing something ? Or are people
just talking about the bottom 1/3 of the grid ie its easy to get going.

For example, buying (not building) the “best” twins bike from
whomever that builder is vs the “best” supersport from whomever that is, Im having trouble seeing how the twins cup bikes wont be approx same cost and possiby even more to run as the parts are all custom.. and skys the limit...

Accessibility is another matter, because the ease of entry does exist in the open classes because its just that, you can do what you want. Im not asking about the lower end affordability, because thats obvious, but Im asking about it at the pointy end of the stick ...

What dont I get ??

 

Call team hammer and ask the cost of building Alex’s bike and Bobby’s bike. Or ask Palmer the cost to buy the bike Parrish is riding and say Prince what he’d sell his for. I’m thinking new ~$10k cheaper for a twins bike.
You aren’t missing anything in theory but what you “can” spend on a twin vs what it costs to build a bike to compete at the pointy end are two different things. I couldn’t open the rule book to to a bad link on the ma page but Graves was ~ $40k to build an r6 last I remember. For $40k you can build a hell of a twins bike. A lot of other factors too like spares. Wheels for example- if you can’t find a used set oem wheels are a huge cost. Most twins also start life as salvage bikes that are 3-5k, engine builds are all over the place but I’m imagining twins bike is 4-10k, it’s all over the map. There are a lot of go fast sv parts and fz parts are becoming more available. Good S.S. build is 4? I know what a good S.S. build costs in BSB and I can tell you it’s a big number between heads, cams, etc.
One important thing in the twins class to keep in mind is creativity. It can either cost you a bunch or save you a bunch. I have no idea what team hammer spent on motor development but I’m sure Mr Perry didn’t just throw his best guess together and call it a day. That being said I’m sure his best guess would be damn good
I’m sure someone will post up some actuals but I think it’s misleading with what you can spend vs what you need to spend on a twin. I’m actually curious now what say Team Hammer, Palmer and I guess the RBOM guys (hard to keep track as it seems half the grid is filled with one form or another of them would charge to build a bike. I have a mildly built fz in my garage right now, I can tell you as it sits it’s probably more than a built S.S. bike. It also has a lot of one off bits on it like landing gear, push button shifting, custom carbon foot platforms, etc. but you also don’t need full use of your legs to ride it

 

Youre basically reinforcing what I was thinking but wouldnt some sort of upper caps or tech caps on the twins really be the cherry on top ? That wouldnt stop it being viewed as the “get my feet wet in MotoA” class nor make em much slower ?

 

Yes and no. It already has some limits but the machinery is all over the place as far as levels of build for various years, etc. I’d look into capping it when someone builds and is winning on an unobtanium bit of kit.

 

You can buy team Hammer 600’s for around 15k last I saw that are capable of winning races.
You can buy Twins bikes for similar money or spend a good bit more building new. The rules are fairly open but there are still some that really limit things.
There are around 4K worth of parts inside a good SV engine. Not counting labor or porting.
The SV engine will go all year without needing anything most likely.
Not sure on what the spec currently is for 600’s. When we were on them years ago they were SS pretty much and needed love at least twice a season. They see more laps and double races all weekends.
Chassis wise things are pretty much the same.
The 600’s will use more tires than most will on Twins though some use their full allotment every weekend.
Electronics is a big divide for the Twins class, most are using OEM with a piggyback while others spent big money for Motec or other brand ECU’s. I see that as a waste though with limited return for investment.
At the end of the day our very competitive SV will be for sale...10K gets it as it comes off the racetrack with a spare standard bore engine, spare wheels and bodywork.
11k will get a freshen up of the engine so you can start the season fresh.
Honestly to Me the most important part of deciding where to go is the rider. The Twins is a good bridge between the smaller bikes and the 600’s. Dumas has developed really well this year on the Twins bike and I believe is much farther along than he would of been jumping straight on a 600.
I bet we will see even more moving to the Twins class next year, things may even get better if they fix a few things and parity improves. Wouldn’t be a bad idea to go with a reasonable combined bike and rider weight like moto2&3.

 

I’ve always wondered why there is not more combined weight. I don’t think it should be a 1:1 ratio with rider weight but a formula would be nice.

 

All depends how good the person programming the aftermarket electronics is. You can do a lot with a motec for example that would equal faster lap times but how much faster? Hard to say but the cost gets up there and up there fast. Even bigger factor is the person to run the electronics, if you can even find one.

 

How many at the sharp end are running stanadlone ECUs anyways. I dont see that being where the costs goes astronomic as there's a limit on returns there and lots of available trickle down from the other classes. I see the issue being unlimited chassis and bespoke parts... development costs, as the series progresses, will go up (if you give some the ability to spend, we/they will if they can LoL).

 

In the twins class do you really need wheel speed sensors and electronics management?

 

Well, you can cruise on over to the classifieds and buy Fishers FZ07 for $17k and have a bike ready to win MA races! Or you can buy a new bike, buy all the parts with some slight discounts and end up with a $20-30k bike. I think some of it comes down to the level of competition and the way Twins are going, you’ll need more tires, more testing and more development if you are trying to finish up top. That’s what drives the cost, that last 1-2 seconds at each race.

 

The level of competition is definitely up, for the class to continue to grow it needs better parity and less waste. The ecu’s aren’t really a big deal although they do have too much functionality and are big ticket Items that really drive the cost up.

Equal displacement wound be a great start, a more realistic weight limit for the bikes and I believe a combined rider/bike weight limit would help the class considerably, especially with more and more kids coming into the class. Eventually the club racers there for their moment of fame will disappear and racers like us will quite wasting our time showing up with the deck stacked that far in their favor. Quite honestly it isn’t doing the kids any favors developing either when they have a 3-6 mph gift on every straight.

I would propose doing it this way.
Target rider weight is 140-160lb, Their bikes weight 330lb.
For every pound that a rider is over that allow their bike to lose a pound.
For every pound that a rider is under that weight make them add .5 pounds to the bike.

Wouldn’t be a bad idea to do the same thing in Supersport also with different weights of course....