AMA Junta Attempt To Circumvent Democracy

ok, i'll throw in with fleming here and show my ignorance (again). can anyone please tell me what the ama is supposed to be doing? disregard supercross, club racing and factory superbike teams. what has the ama done to further motorcycling in the us recently? fight helmet law legislation? make more off-highway areas available? this is a business right? they need to sell products and or services to exist, correct? why should i buy a membership? we have a pr man online here i guess, so help me out. tell me why i should be a member of this group. thank you, rob wigdorski, jr. btw, i did witness the ama take credit for the air fencing, but i also saw who really put it together, thanks mr ulrich, that was the first time i witnessed anything productive happening that had the letters "ama" attatched.

 

Which is perhaps why people elected you with the end result being the squandering of $3m in members' money in a lawsuit.

The AMA today, is quite frankly, a joke. If you aren't a member (and read the magazine) you'd never even know the org existed.

About the only thing I ever read about is how the AMA is fighting helmet laws. No offense, but it's a stupid cause. There is no intelligent argument for not wearing a helmet.

Blah blah blah, it's a free country. Great... when I moved to DE this year, my motorcycle insurance went up. Why? No helmet law. Many insurance companies won't even insure bikes here. The freedom of morons wanting to crack their skulls open should stop when I have to pay for it.

Thanks AMA. I appreciate it.

- Brian Roach
Former AMA Member

 

I've been following this thread for the past few days, and wasn't going to add to it because I don't know a lot about the AMA v. CCE controversy.
But I have to ask: Why, Dal, haven't you answered the questions about your reasons for exempting dealers & promoters from the proposed rule change??
As an AMA member, I strongly object, and agree with JU that it raises suspicion. If the intent was to insure that "individual" members retained those seats, then why not propose your rule change to cover ALL those who are eligible corporate members? There are certainly dealers and promoters who have larger and more influential corporations than some other motorcycle-related corporations who would be excluded. I don't see how you can justify this, but I'm open to an explanation.

 

Dal, no matter what, the current board has NO BUSINESS voting on an election issue with 3 lame ducks on it. Period. IF the 2/16 meeting is when the issue is scheduled to come up for a vote, it should be tabled until the new Directors can be seated and vote on it. The membership has spoken and 3 of you got shown the door by a large margin. That is absolute proof that the members they represent have NO CONFIDENCE in their ability to lead the organization. Given that this is a non-profit, supposedly member-driven organization, those 3 should do the honorable thing and resign now. They have no business whatsoever making major decisions on the direction or election procedures for the organization now. None.

And I too would like to see answers to Mr. Fleming's questions. Or even for you to address the issues Mr. Ulrich brought up. Instead, you follow typical AMA style and obfuscate and spin.

I read all about the Edmundson fiasco in the AMA magazine. To say that the coverage in there was spin is putting it mildly. To say it was a bald-faced lie is much closer to the truth. That happened on your watch. To me, that makes YOU part of the problem and not part of the solution.

The only reason I've maintained my AMA membership is so I can race at the AMA Grand Championships at Mid-Ohio. If not for that, I'd be telling the AMA to stick it.

But I guess I get pissed off when someone takes me for a $3 million ride.

 

You know, people can bitch all they want about the 3 million dollar payoff. It doesn't matter, your bitching about old news that you cannot & will not change.

Whatever John, Kevin & Jeff are able to change for the better of all AMA members will never change the past. As for the non-AMA members, what do you care?

The voting is over, the time for finger pointing is past, I don't care to hear an accounting of the past, I expect the new & old directors to work together for the future. Can they still do that while engaging in a " He said, She said" debate? I don't think so.

Flame off, lets move on.

Lizard
Reporting in from greater downtown Bedrock

P.S.
I know the GS is ugly, its still to young, you have to be in you mid fortys & train like a madwoman to look as good as Tina...

Hows that for civil John ?

 

Don't we all agree that we want there to be healthy motorcycling? The forces of government at all levels, insurors, radical greens and safetycrats threaten us. There are an array of groups fighting for our rights and the AMA is the biggest and oldest and works with the others. You won't have racing if you don't have motorcycling. Pay attention because it is perilous out there.

In relation to the big picture issue about whether we need independant sanctioning bodies, what they should do and who they should be we all have to think about what is best for racing. In the past and still for awhile we have independant bodies like AMA, WERA and more. They try to be honest brokers that try to do the best for all the constituents and hold honest racing.

We have always wanted our sport to be valued more highly by the public. Now that it is getting there the bigger money guys move in. Our historical sanctioning bodies are not multi billion dollar income generating outfits.

Big entertainment companies do not really see value added by the traditional sanctioning bodies. They would rather run the entire entertainment show themselves. The AMA has clout only so long as it is important for those huge entertainment conglomerates to provide a traditional and historical national championship. Professional wrestling doesn't need that any longer, how long will they?

I see a lot of folks on this cite totally buy into any PR some of these big companies put out. There is another side.

You have to figure out what sort of sanctioning bodies you want. Rules and officiating made completely by huge for-profit entertainment monopolies or an honest broker, one where you and your representatives can have some impact.

There has been a lot of unhappiness about the Pro Race staff and Board and AMA board among the racing community. I think there is always room for improvement, especially with safety. Most of the staff and Pro Board have been racers or involved with racing their whole lives.

When I saw the Pro Race and AMA boards referred to by many in the recent AMA Board election cycle by many as self serving, uncaring, self interested and so on I wondered if anyone knows who these people are. Ray Blank is the head guy at Honda and an avid on and off road rider; Paul Dean is the Sr. editor at Cycle World, former tech/service guy for Ossa, racer, avid off and on road rider; P.J. Harvey is a straight-up guy who has been in the industry for years and is a close friend of KR sr; Jeff Smith is two-time 500cc world MX champ, worked for a coupld of factories and ran AHRMA; Ron Widman was a Class C racer and now sponsor; Cary Aghaganian (sp)and family have racing fuel for blood. If these guys don't know anything about racing then what would be the people who do? Personally I think people like Kevin, Jeff and JU seem like more of the same type.

Maybe a not for profit membership association isn't the best business model for running the premier sanctioning body. What do you think it ought to be? Sold, given to or taken by a large for profit monopoly? Sometimes dictatorships run things better, for awhile anyway.

It is true that the AMA thinks helmets for adults should be their choice. It also maintains that helmets are far safer. I always have worn a helmet but I buy into the Libertarian view point that an adult ought to be able to choose how to run his life, even if that involves riding or even racing motorcycles.

We all probably ought to be paying attention to the real important issues like are we going to have to buy only tamper proof bikes required by the EU and DOT or worse insurance.

Insurance for one's personal medical mostly comes from group health plans. Due to new federal regs plan admininstrators can change plans to deny coverage. If this spreads motorcycling and racing can be over and fast. Insurance for events is also getting much more difficult. 9/11 made insuring harder yet.

Who know, we may all have to hustle up and form an insurance company to stay alive. But that is great risk and very expensive and to get recognized in all 50 states is a long term and nearly impossible process. But for that reason alone I'd stay an AMA member.

The AMA code changes must be done at the annual corporate members meeting. That is Feb 16. No lame ducks are voting on it. JU, Kevin and Jeff Nash will be seated at that time. The lame ducks are still board members at this time and AMA business does go on. There are no special meetings or big votes coming up prior to the annual meeting so there are no votes from the lame ducks.

The reason we still propose to allow dealers and small promotors is because that is the bottom rung in our industry. Huge national and international promotors or factories seem different than the small guy. Many racers including myself have done some small scale promoting. In my case it was some MX in the '70s and some roadriding events in the '80s or '90s. Jeff Smith sits on the board of an affiliate member, AHRMA. We do want our individual members on the board to be knowlegable and enthusiasts.

Request corporate member qualifications from Tracey Powell at: [email protected]. We have about three levels of corporate membership.

As for the question about how commuting in DC has been helped by the AMA, the AMA fought and fought to get HOV lanes opened to motorcycles. I think it was Virginia that fought hardest to not follow that federal law and we had to go fight it there also.

But remember, the "suits" in the AMA's Government Relations Offices can only do so much. They can research, they can testify, they can get people together but local and state and even federal government respond to masses of registered voters writing letters, emails and testifying. The strength of the AMA comes from those of the 270,000 members who help in that way.

 

Old news?? So, the doubling of license fees this year and the severe hike in sanctioning fees by the AMA isn't related and doesn't effect us TODAY? Bah!

Because I WAS a member, and would like to support an org that looks out for motorcycling and riders. As it is today, I can't do that with a good concious. As it is, I didn't race any AMA 250gp races last year because I would be forced into being a member of an org I don't like or trust. I may do the same this year. I wish that wasn't the case.

If the "old directors" weren't so keen on lying and trying to change the rules so that they can stay directors, that might have some merit.

- Roach

 

Last time I looked, Virginia is not in Washington D.C.

There are also no HOV lanes in Washington D.C.

Sam asked what the AMA has done for *Urban DC*. People live and ride motorcycles there too.

- Roach

 

Just my two cents on the CCE vs. AMA issue,
There has been a lot made of why it's okay for CCE to be a money grubbing greedy corporation and not okay for the AMA to be as well. While I don't see CCE's position as such, they are a corporation. No if's, and's, or but's. They aren't even ashamed of it. The AMA on the other hand is a non profit organization designed to protect the best interests of the American Motorcyclist(tm, and subjective to who the AMA feels like protecting on a given day). Yes I know AMA Pro Racing is a for profit but it is run by a non profit which means AMA Pro Racing should follow the same mission statement as it's parent. Basically yes, I hold the AMA to a higher standard. Yes, I expect them to do what's right even if it's not the most profitable. I don't expect the above from CCE since they don't do flag waving and tell everyone how they represent the American Motorcyclist(tm). If the AMA represented this American Motorcyclist (definately not tm), they would push for helmet laws, AMA superbike would be twice as large a series it is now with a better TV deal, and Dainese would be required to produce and import a size 64 suit.

YMMV,
Mikey

 

I think you are getting a little nit-picky now.

Traveling in DC is dangerous in a freaking bus much less on a motorcycle so there isn't a hell of a lot that can be done for motorcyclists' convenience.

Have you got suggestions for improving motorcycling in the DC area?

I'm not arguing but just showing that we can't just talk about problems without helping with the solutions too.

 

Hmmm, maybe this explains the hypocrisy used by AMA Pro Racing in dealing with Honda and maybe why Kurtis Roberts still holds an AMA racing license.

Is their knowledge of racing where Kurtis gets these secret probations without actual consequences for his dangerous racing?

 

How is being a DC resident (as for myself, former ... 16th and W) being nit-picky? Sam's question wasn't about VA.

As for improving things in DC... that's what the AMA is supposed to figure out, and that's the point of Sam's question. How about even little things, like more or free street-side motorcycle parking? Things to promote riding in DC.

- Brian

 

Mr. Smilie said that the AMA created and protected healthy motorcycling. I disagree. I don't think the AMA has done much, if anything, for motorcycling as I know it.

I was willing to be educated though so I asked Mr. Smilie for examples of what the AMA has done for my motorcycling which includes road racing, street riding and various other two wheeled pursuits.

His response was more of a null answer which is "We helped out those ten guys that use the VA HOV lanes." As Roach points out. That dodges my question.

As RC correctly points out "What could the AMA do for my motorcycling?" Well, I would say that I don't know. I think that maybe Roach, RC and myself are in agreement that contrary to Smilie's assertions, the AMA has not, and probably cannot, improve my motorcycling experience/environment. He also has not yet answered my other questions.

I would like to add another question to the unanswered ones above. Is the AMA currently engaged in litgation with Team Obsolete or TO's owner?


Lizard 84, you probably won't like the source of the original speaker but a famous economist once said ""History repeats itself. First as tragedy then as farce." or, alternately "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it."

 

Thanks for the explanation, Dal, but it doesn't make sense. You are suggesting that dealers & promoters are inherently the smallest of cycle-related corp's, and all other cycle-related corp's are on a larger scale. You know that's not true! There's lots of small parts mfg's & other types of companies that are smaller than many dealers & promoters. Since dealers & promoters are eligible for corp seats also, isn't it a possibility that the board could end up being controlled by dealers & promoters? How is that any different than if the same seats were controlled by individuals affiliated with other small companies?? I just don't follow your logic.

Why is it that CCE is portrayed as dictatorial, dishonest, and bad for motorcycle racing, simply because it's a large for-profit corporation?? Successful corporations in this country live or die by market forces, thus they either give the people what they want or they fail. How is that bad for motorcycle racing? If large corporations are bad for honest racing, then shouldn't large corporations be banned completely from the AMA board? It's also strange for you to criticize CCE for being a dictatorship, when that's exactly what the AMA has been to motorcycle racing in the US until the arrival of CCE. This new competition will ultimately make motorcycle racing bigger & better. But unless the AMA quickly adapts to this new world and learns to run with the efficiency of a dynamic for-profit corporation, my money will be on CCE!

 

Cuz nobody cares about DC except 3-4 members.

Now you are giving specific things for them to help with. It makes sense. I guess it just depends on how far DC is up on the AMA's priority list. Realize that almost half of the states still required helmets so drunk idiots don't crack their skulls when unloading their Harley's from the trailer. The AMA will be busy with those laws for awhile. Then they should be able to start helping the rest of us.

 

Awesome thread! There are some good exchanges here and some real issues but I have yet to hear any response to AOD 99's questions regarding the Edmonson debacle.

I'm listening...

 

i'm still wondering why i should join. if i do so, will it help in any way for motorcycling in general? pretend i don't race bikes and i'm just getting started in the motorcycle scene instead of being involved with them for the past 20 years. will i be able to help in any way with any of these issues? is my voice to be heard on a topic? will i be silenced in real life just as i have been here by being quietly ignored? i've got all day.....rob wigdorski, jr.

 

Im basically just a race fan, so my input to this disscusion is purely from the outside looking in. I do however own/ride a motorbike in the USA so I can apreciate the AMA. I would also like to say that in all of the different forms or racing I have followed there is not one person who stands out more than Mr John Ulrich for his contributions to his chosen form of motor racing so Im probably not the only American motorcyclist that is sure things can only get better for US...

anyway, while reading these various topics and posts here on the WERA BBS I picked up a couple of tidbits and I have a suggestion:

somewhere Larry Lawrence wrote:
"Personally I would like to see the two parties resolve their differences, but I believe it would take an independent arbitrator or a think tank to find a reasonable solution. "

somwhere else John Ulrich wrote:
"In my perfect world, There would be an AMA BBS, and every Director would have to spend some time in direct interaction with members, because, as this BBS shows, it can be damn educational."

NOW, having read this, may I offer my humble suggestion... the WERA BBS has allready proven to be an extreamly useful tool to the US RR community, however Im sure there are some AMA issues that would be far to sensitive to hash out on a public forum.
so how about creating an AMA BBS with a secure, AMA board members only section (think tank)? it is definately a do-able, and it would save more money than it costs in phone bills alone. certainly I am not the only one who has suggested this but I felt compelled to do so "just in case"

respectfully,

///// Todd Rice


Stay Tuned and Safe Motoring!

 

Interesting idea. Right now they use four-hour-long conference calls.

And thanks for the kind words.

[This message has been edited by John Ulrich (edited 02-08-2002).]

 

We have always tended to ignor you until you shove a beer into our hands...

Then you have our full attention