450 super single

I'm just doing a little market research here: I have an opportunity to buy used YZ450 chassis with std engines or modified engines (minus front end, plastics, wheels, shock, pipe) I could resell the chassis for about $3600 (with std eng) to customers and offer 20-25% discount on all the supersingle parts we make. On average it would cost somebody about $4000 to convert the bike to a supersingle (on a budget using some second hand parts).

Does this seem like a reasonable price? Is the price the big concern for this class? Is it the "building the bike" part that makes it difficult? Is there a big concern the bike will not "work" (blow up, not handle, etc)? Or is it just racing a dirbike on a roadcoarse is stupid (I hear "why would you want to do that" every now and again). Better contingency?

I'm just trying to get a handle on why the class has not grown - any feedback good or bad is helpful.

Thanks for any info - geoff maloney GPtech llc

 

I think that sounds reasonable. For me it is money as I don't have it right now to build this although I think it would be fun to do it.

 

After (quickly) skimming your website, instead of offering a non-rolling chassis for $3600 plus parts at 25% discount, how about a rolling chassis for a set price and accessories (bodywork, exhaust, rearsets, clipons etc) with a 15% discount? It looks like with your 25% discount that you could get the chassis set up with an R6 front end, shock, and some OEM wheels for ~$4300 (assuming easy availability of wheels), then have different levels of packages. Instead of absorbing the discount on parts, absorb the discount on the chassis and forks and then offer a realistic discount on accessories. Obviously, the more margin that you have available the steeper discount you could offer on those specific parts.

I see Supermoto stuff offered as packages, from basic to sublime (forks, shock, wheels, rotors, etc), all clearly spelled out with discounts included in the package price. We are covering this very subject in Economics right now, discussing burden against margin. Pretty applicable to your situation, where you can offer a discount, but on what do you offer it? I say get them in with a reasonably priced rolling/operable chassis, then get them to open their wallet for your "boutique" items after you offer a discount on high end parts. The bigger the package, the bigger the (perceived) discount.

 

Geoff - I think it's tough just because of the class right now. Lightweight bike numbers have dropped off the past few years for whatever reason. Throw in that the singles are a project bike - which appeals to some, but for others - it's more of a committment (both in time and money) and I think the the idea of a turn-key race bike is a nice option to many. Also, you go to a track day and all you see are 600's and 1000's running around nowadays it seems. It's a shame there aren't more lightweight bikes.

Just my two cents.

 

its mainly a bike only racers can buy and use..........

im not sure that NESBA would even let someone ride one at a trackday now since their recent banning on motards on a majority of tracks they run

i think youre better off offering a full turn key package for 4000-4500 like what was said above

the lack of turn out in the class i think is due to the concept of building the bike...........its not the same as just building a sv650 or a 600 or a 1000.......much more goes into it (or that is the perception)

 

I saw these at Laguna in 2007 when Gavin and Roland first brought them out to gauge reactions. I was hooked on them from the beginning. I asked Gavin lots of questions which he was happy to answer except for one...cost. He would not give me a straight answer and after going home and researching I learned why. It's just too expensive.
I really want to build one and I'm definitely a project guy, but the initial cost is just too high. The other factor is that they are not really proven yet. How much do they cost to keep running, and how do they handle? I've been following these real closely and have not seen the answers to these questions yet. I know that if left stock, the motors seem to hold up for a season but there have not been many singles raced before. I know that supermonos are not new and the Europeans have been building and racing them for a while but compared to other bikes, they are still an unknown.
Furthermore, the singles that have been raced are singles stuffed into GP chassis, so these 450motos really have not been proven to handle yet.

To sum up, I plan to build one and race it because I really dig the concept. But right now it's too expensive, and that's the big reason.

 

Hey Geoff,

In my humble opinion it's the 'why issue'. Why re-invent the wheel? Why spend so much more for what is essentially a Motard? i know i said this already but there's also the thing about pedigree, for those racer types that seem to like to work on the bike as much as they ride it there's AHRMA, all those Duc.'s, 2-Stokes etc. with the cool pedigree... so again; Why?

 

a motard will woop your 620 in the corners, so with the increased earodynamics, a supersingle will likely keep up on the biggest straights.

 

I want one because I love the platform (Ripsnorting single) but I don't care for the racing style (Motard).

 

Geoff, I rode your bike at Grattan at an Apex2Apex event last August. You also helped me with my GSXR front end. Thanks again.
From my perspective it is the unknown reliability factor. How will the engines hold up over time, and the costs of rebuilds. The other factor that has come up of for me is the 'why re-invent the wheel' issue. I think I would prefer a road race package from the get go. Something with the pedigree, like the Moriwaki. Although there are still the motor unknowns.

 

Hell yes!

Geoff has got the ticket. The deal with 450s delivered for $3,600 is awesome. Spend a bit more and you're on the track with a fun, super handling bike that has some real bite and is a giant killer. I'm all in, placing my order tomorrow. So what are the classes this bike will be eligible for?

 

I think this is an awesome idea, but I say that as someone who loves lightweight motorcycles and enjoys working and tinkering and bikes (to a degree). If you took pscook's idea, it would still be attractively priced compared to a TZ, but the things that might make it unattractive are the unknowns; what are the running costs for a season and will there be enough classes to run this thing in that will justify the investment into the bike?

Maybe you could help assuage people's fears and make money at the same time by offering a "season support package", to include a package deal for your customers who bought a bike on an engine rebuild kit as well as technical assistance, you could compile data and information from everyone who buys a bike from you and maybe even reach out to other people that are running the bikes.

 

I know that my YZ426 has service intervals of ~50 hours, which could last a season if I ran my races and pratices smart. If I do a trackday, then all bets are off.

Again, this would be part of the package. You purchase a higher level package, then you get a higher level of service. It's Mercedes vs Kia then, as you bear the burden either up front or later on. More $ upfront = more support, less $ upfront assumes that you will bear the maintenance burden yourself. It's like razors- The razors are free, but you pay for the blades, and the blades aren't cheap.

 

Oh, and up in WMRRA we could run in almost any class excepting Supersport, as there is a provision for "Single cylinders of unlimited displacement", except for the 125 GP class. Lightwewight Superbike, Open Singles, 250 GP are the ones that spring to mind. No clubman to speak of up here.

 

I know. I expect that it would not only keep up, but it would probably pass me. Paul Jensen is threatning to build one for next year, and McGee is already flying on his single. (he has a 450 shoehorned into a 125 GP chassis)
I'm really going to have to bring my game against these guys, especially the short course.

 

Pauls will be a superbike, so atleast you wont have to worry about him in SS, if he actaully builds one.

Bruces destroys sparkplugs in 3 laps and with that tiny rear tire, cant drive out anywhere near hard enough.

i'll sell you mine once it's done.

 

I don't think I'm racing SS. I might make some changes.
I was hanging with Bruce from T3 to T9 but then he just pulls away.
You're building one?...then selling it?

 

Geoff, I've wondered the same thing, especially toward the end of last season. Every time I bring mine out, I still get a steady stream of interested observers. The thing is, there's a difference between interested people, and interested people who are willing to spend the money to buy/build one. I think the option you are presenting could help as long as there is enough marketing to let people know that there is another option at half the price of the RSD bike.

I think the why or proven concept issues will just take time. I was concerned about the reliability issue as well, so I went out and got sponsorship from a local mechanic/shop that is great with these engines. Three race weekends and a trackday have totalled about four hours of runtime, so I haven't had to do anything other than oil changes after every weekend and 1 valve adjustment. My tire bill is fantastic. This bike is easier on tires than my old SV. The front I ran at the STT event at talladega probably had 45 laps on it at the beginning of the day and 80-90 by the end of the day, and was still very usable at a 1:05-1:07 pace. Skip even jumped on the bike for a session and took no time to get down to a respectable pace.

 

Thank you for all the info! This has really helped me get a better perspective on the project. I appreciate all your comments.

From all I've learned the YZ engines are reliable (I'm not sure for how long exactly because this is somewhat new territory) It does seem the roadcoarse is easier on the engine (even flatout down the straights) because you don't rev the piss out of them all the time (they drone on - not scream). Another deciding factor for us to start these bikes were that I saw the motards banging off the revlimiters and found out just how often the teams rebuilt or had issues with the engine (everyone with extensive single experience seemed to think there was no issue with dependability).

I started this project after Roland and Gavin got going (once WERA announced the rules) - my main concern at the time was "was there a class?" I think we ran in D superbike, motard, and a clubman class (along with 450ss). I think things got off to a slow start and the percieved high costs for building the bikes put some people off. There are many other factors that play into it now (reliability,handling, etc)

We are making all the information we collect, when riding and testing, to anyone. Even guys who have not purchased any parts or even guys on other 450's we had nothing to do with. I know the info is worth something - but it is my belief that if everyone knows more about the bikes the class will grow. Open information to all has definately helped. I've never been one to keep secrets about our bikes - I think attention to detail and good preperation are the keys to a successful bike. Sharing information definately helps us build better products (more info - good or bad drives technology)

I think the overall yearly costs will be low (tires, pads, crash damage) We even crashed it a couple times (good info - found out how durable things are)

I found the cost can effect the sale but I have a few customers that pay as they build. They have the bike already - then decide what parts they want to start with and then build and buy parts as the project progresses (rather than buy everything at once) Maybe I'll set something up to show how a build progesses and what costs are expected along the way.

The experience we have with the bike makes me think it would be a very good learning platform or a bike that does not require the level of seriousness a 600 or larger bike requires. (things happen slower and you need to get every ounce of performance out of it to keep up with the larger bikes) It keeps up with most SV's and out handles the 125's.

The bike actually surprised me when I first tested - I didn't know how well it would work and it has exceeded all my expectations (handling, power, fun factor, etc). (sometimes I have to make sure I don't sound too enthusiastic about a friggin dirtbike) All in all the project has been rewarding and I have enjoyed the challenge.

 

i'm considering converting my 450 to a SS, yes. i think i can get more for it as a SS than as it sits. i need to buy bodywork, make a fairing stay, do the work for rearsets and shorten the suspension. i have alot of quality stuff already, like Ohlins fron and back, plus clip-ons, a modified swingarm and WR tranny.