PICTURES

So what your saying is your getting rich ripping people off at weddings right

 

I'd like to add......

We made your "wedding weekend" money consistantly. So, you must be doing something terribly wrong. I even considered doing it full time and quitting my 17 year career...but that's another story.
I'm quite sure other regulars do well, or they wouldn't be there, year after year, busting their ass.
The same goes for Darrin and others you've mentioned. They've been around for years, doing what they do....and I dare to say they're not loosing money year after year or they would've quit doing it! (common business sense, no?)

If you're going to 'change your strategy'...make sure you pay the vendor fee and play by the same rules every other trackside business must adhere to....or just don't show up. It really is that simple. If I were putting in the time, effort, and personal sacrifice that you claim to be, I would've threw in the towel a long time ago. Perhaps a new business plan?
I've never seen so much BS and complaining in my life!

 

Who doesn't get it? Me? I'm Darrin Talbott, and I sell parts over the internet. I don't sell much because I learned not to push things here in the General section.

If you use the General section to let people know where to buy pictures, it's advertising. That is not rocket science.

If you find that you aren't selling enough to meet expenses, you need to figure out what your problem is, not expect the rules to be bent to help you out.

If I can take pictures at a WERA race and sell them for a penny each, guess what? Your prices have just been undercut, and you'll need to figure out what else you can offer that I can't. That's business.

If you are doing this for fun, join the club. That's why 98% of the people are at the track, anyway.

 

Wedding prices range from about 1200 from guys that hardly know how to shoot to a bit over $5000. I think a woman I know who charges up to 20 grand (and doing well) may be a bit steep but ... hey the clients are happy.
So what do you do so you can afford to eat and spend ridiculous sums for a hobby? How do you rip people off? Any thought as to moving to a less capitalist society? Oh ... and do you give your stuff away, the way idiots like myself do?

Funny thing about photography while we are on the topic. A racer with an average grasp of realities can fanthom that it costs money to race AMA, more than wera. People "get it" that to play you have to pay. They seem to comprehend as well that to get better results you get professional grade equipment, and a skilled pro team to go with it. The prices rise pretty fast, don't they ... with each few percentage points improvement.

Funny then how when they go to a fine restaurant, rather than McDonald's (they do go get fine quinine once in a while I presume - if they are married ) Do they finish a meal and blurt out - "Man, that was good! That chef must have great knives!"

Hmmmm.
So why the hillarious idea that the equiptment makes the shot. I does not. Tony Brown could run circles around most with a point and shoot while if I hand most my gear, they wont even figgure out how to uses it and the shots will be a just as bad as they always have been. It is the creativity, the instinct and the eye of the shooter. Some have it - some don't. Some can slowly learn ... most ... well I hate to break it to them ... but most will never be able to distinguish themselves through a lens.

It is however, never solely the knives.

And so .... smokey ... why the attitude? I guess you bitch at paying for tires from michelin ... and go get a bicycle tire from walmart to mount. You sure can save some dough - and nobody there to make you feel ripped off, eh?

One day I will let you in on a secret. Ah, heck ... why make you wait, here it is: "You get what you pay for". In all endeavors.

Have a great day ... I hope you don't get ripped off somewhere!

 

Uh.......dude it was a joke, you where a little stressed out thought it might make you smile, see the wink and the smile after the comment

and I buy Pirelli's and no I dont bitch, guess you missed how I feel about Walmart in another post. I own a small business that has to compete with giant stores like walmart. FUCK WALMART

 

It's alright "smokey"......sarcasm doesn't float all the way up to the top of the righteous photog high horse.

 

Thanks, can we get a group hug or something.

 

Darrin (sorry about the misspelling earlier) what is not being gotten is that we do this not for money. That is the exact point.

So I'm not considering it advertisement now if it changes to for no profit for me now. You are right about it when selling ... but I'm not going to sell anymore after this race except if it can be structured for an air fence donation. I will give it away as long as I get a release (love you guys) and those who get the file understand it will be for personal use only.


To Prov. I've been in this biz long enough and have spoken to enough track-side shooters to know better. Try the BS on someone more gullible, ok.
Roo has a business degree and she can run up projections with her eyes closed on all the permutations. As far as doing something wrong. Yup. We are new at this and nobody knows where to find our stuff.
I'm a mod at a photo forum and an active participant to several other. I know quite well the laments of certain sectors of the biz aspect of their game - from the sum of hundreds of established pro's. So I knew going in roughly what the lay of the land was ... but didn't care ... because ... now listen carefully here .... because I'm getting tired of repeating this "IT WAS NOT ABOUT MONEY!"
And while I'm in the biz of repeating .... I DIDN"T GIVE A TOOT WHERE TO PUT LINKS TO YOUR SHOTS. I only wonder about the wisdom of the decision to make it be put into a very obscure spot and would like the rules followed if made. None of these transparent phony posts to push ones stuff. I fully believe that wera (that being mongo) has full right to make the rules. I like wera. I want things to work.
for me this was about some of you dudes that see a rich photographer every time you blink, and feel a rip off coming when you dont' get you walmart prices.

It needs to be said, that those folks are in the great minority. I've had a ton of email thanking me. I wanted to structure prices to meet expenses. I started low. Four folks (exagerating here ) found us. raised prices. As more folks found us we started to meet costs. With the extra we bough more race stuff (more cards since it was so paltry) As more buy we lowered some prices. If we make 4000 from the next race (as it was supposed to be) the plan was to buy two lenses that I don't need except for racing and then lower prices. Hear me again. We want to meet expenses - and then just have fun.

If you are a cynic you may wonder why some guy would be saying he does not want profit. Well, just remember that when it becomes too much of a business - you lose your hobby. And that is reason enough.

Hey ... but this might wind up good for all if it goes the way its going.
And if the air thing does not work ... then sure, I may just give it away again. I do want this for fun. Roo has said the same thing. See, the shooting is fun. The spending hours in front of the computer captioning is not. So if its for giveaway then there is only going to be one small change for you guys and that is that the racers will be in no order. You will have to find your shots scattered through out the site of 2000 frames. That is the part that takes all my time.

So air fence fund, or free. Kind of up to the man Mongo (or perhaps his boss - the wife ) But either way .. I hope we all wind up happy.
I favor the air fence idea. But I'm not dealing with the bull. Btw ... this was a brewing before this whole post started. I really do just want to have fun. Can anyone pay for my hotels?

 

Yeah ... I was not sure how you meant it Smokey. I saw the smileys ... but I was (am) wound too tight right now. Sorry.
Sarcasm is so fun to write ... so hard to live down afterwards.

I'd like to think that we are all here for the same end purpose in the end.
And I think people don't trust my motivations and what I'm saying because Its comming from such an unusual angle. I guess I can't blame anyone ... but perhaps I can prove it over time by my actions.

Take me up on my offer someone - will ya? Free (cheap) motels ... free beer (lots of it) and a few donuts to get us through. We will be there and then at prices we can vote on (probably rigged by mongo) we can buy files for the good feeling of contributing to the Air fence fund.

I'm willing. And if I comes to pass ... I hope that I've proven myself then.

 

But if any photographer from this thread (my dear friends one and all) comes up to me to complain - you know what I'm going to do with the wide end of my 300 f 2.8.

Gotta go play with my kids now. We can get back to the arguing later.
Hey everyone ... hope you have a great 4th of July!

 

hey, I'm still learning and finally got the equipment to take better pictures (a silly f/2.8 lens ). I'll be more then happy to help out, and perhaps learn from you guys in the process! I'll even foot my own costs because I'll be racing anyway. What do ya think?

 

First thing I want to get out is :
Mongo I deleted my post because it was ment for you and since you do not get pm's then the only way to get it to you without going through the WERA email was to put it on here. Since the response I received (even after I put "no response needed, rules understood"), was from someone who wanted to insult my photography abilities (funny since you are not a photographer), I decided that my life is to short to have a bitch fest over something that will go no where. So before you tell me to "grow up" you might want to suggest this to some of the people who work for YOU and also go over how to talk to people when you work for a big business like WERA. There are ways of talking to people without insulting them. I have delt with many WERA personal that are completly lovely and always willing to help, talk and just encourage everyone to have a good day. Some how though, once a computer is infront of a few of your workers they suddenly want to insult anyone who comes in here with a few questions. That is no way to run a business or website. When you are on this website you have no idea the type of person on the other side of a different screen reading your post, take Over Reactor for example, he gave me shit for awhile but is a completely friendly, willing to help person once you meet him in person. My point to this is just because you have a screen in front of you, that gives you no right to insult someone you DO NOT KNOW!

Now on to the photography point since that is why this thread was started. Pavel and Roo have both made excellent points so I feel no need to repeat them. But I would like to give ya'll some of my background and why I am out there since this has somehow turned into photographers being money hungary. I started shooting sports photography 12 years ago and fell in love with it. I started shooting motorcycle race photography a little over 2 years ago and not only fell for the racing but also the friendships that are made, the great weekends, the thrill of capturing in my camera,the amazing speed that you guys are racing at and just the thought that I was helping out someone who really just wanted to see his body positions and that winning moment in their race. I did start out giving my pictures away as well. I actualy did not feel the need or want to sell my prints until it was suggested to me a few months ago on this board by another photographer(thanks Tristan). I do sponsor a couple of different racers by giving them their shots, being at all of their races, espically since most of the tracks my racers go to DO NOT have other photographers. And in turn they run my sticker on their bikes and put my name out there whenever possible. It is a fare trade in my eyes. I promote them, they promote me!

Doing photography for the races at this point is only a hobby for me. YES it is my passion as is racing for all of the racers out there but I CAN NOT make a living off of it. I am a single mom of 2 boys, a widow of an active duty Navy man, a full time student and many other things. I know I can not support my family with WERA races BUT I am still out there because I am dedicated to my dreams, my passion, my life and my racers (Damian, Grag and Jeff). I understand that racing "can go on with out photogs", I am not an idiot by any sense of the word so there is no need to point out the obvious BUT just like everyone else that participates in the WERA weekends, I am there to offer my help and photography services, to make the weekend memoriable. I am on the track shooting as well as in the pits helping. Yes it is my choice to be there, as it is everyone's choice BUT we are there because we love it.

So again I will say that there is no need to respond to this post. I understand the rules, they will be followed but I have now seen a side of WERA that is extreamly unprofessional and I know from dealing with other orginazitions that at some point the way you talk to and treat others will comeback on you. I hope WERA will take a good look at who they employ and lay some ground rules for how to respond to peoples questions. I did not promote myself in my question and I was NOT looking for attention unlike the response I received. Again I will say ,so that everyone see's what I deleted ," Your response was uncalled for and rude"! I stand by that! I am an adult and carry myself as one.

Thank you to the majority of the people who I have come into contact with through WERA that are so helpful and always encouraging. You are noted in my mind and most likely in my pictures. You know who you are and I appreciate all of you, for the jobs you do!

~Jennifer

 

I think your idea to donate to the fund is great and would like to offer my pictures if you are interested.

~Jennifer

 

OK, so I get it now. Because track photography is a "hobby" for most, it's OK to burn up WERA's bandwidth promoting that "hobby", even though it results in income for the "hobbyist". Makes complete sense to me now.

 

I talk to my camera all the time mongo. But how about turning this all around. How about we (some of us) take the proffesional out of it. There must be common ground here so we all walk away happy. This thread is no longer about the rules. We know them ... and will move on.

But it has been somewhat refreshing for me to talk to someone else besides my camera. It sort of sorts in in ones head. I, just like Roo and thanfully photobutterfly have had the feeling that as far as selling stuff .... its hardly worth it. It is not what fosters a love of the racing. We thought of it as our contribution back ... and sought to lessen the burnden of expenses. This thread made me see that others feel we are in some bussiness first. So .... I'm willing as I've said to make it something back to the racers. I'm grateful that photobutterfly sees things in a similar way.

HOw about forgiving and forgetting. We will follow the rules. Me, by getting out of the selling biz. heck when you are a photographer the real trip is in people seeing and appreciating your work. The rest sucks that out anyway.

So, I'm still waiting for the answer as to whether offering our services for no monetary reward for us is something wanted. I can't see how not because then we get to give a service, and do it in the true amateur spirit. The Air Fence fund is something I believe in, separate from any stuff raised here in this thread. So in a sense the racers improve their safety by getting memories of their racing exploits for a small token to the fund. We get our fun, a chance to participate and - hopefully all's well that end well.

And then I think I qualify as just another shmuck taking pictures - and I should be fine in posting samples of what I tend to be proud of?

 

Frank. Are you getting what I'm trying to say? I'm walking away from the money completely. Its either that wera profits ... or for free. I hardly care ... but it seems that the air fence fund is worth it. Oh btw ... I ain't going to deal with the money at all. Wera can. I just send the picture on when wera says the money to the fund has been payed ... and will stand in turn one with a cooler at the next race. That cooler ... its for beer donations. Feel free to give back - will ya?

In a way I'm really glad of this thread that initially pissed me off. My camera, lying there all seductive and all on the pillow was lying to me when we used to talk. You see she wanted more friends, and some of that expensive glass to wear. But now I see more clearly.

hey ... photobutterfly. I saw you working seven but was on the other side. Hope to say hello next time.

 

I did follow your rules the first time you posted them. If you reread my question in the start of this thread you will see I am asking why some followed the rules while others were allowed to get away with promoting their "for sale" pictures. You call me unprofessional when all of your responses are rude? I think you need to rethink the way you use that term (unprofessional). I am not a child to anyone but my parents so unless you gave birth to me then you have no right to talk to me as such. Again you are showing the unprofessional side! I did not talk down to you in anyway until I needed to defend myself. As I see it, throughout this board , most people do not speak up for themselves when it comes to you, they refer to you as a "GOD". So with that "title" comes certain responsibilities. I for one do not let people talk to me like I am a second class citizen.

This thread is like beating a dead horse and has lost it's original point. Again it is a waste of time because you have to at somepoint understand that people are set in their ways. Some of us enjoy change and see that with it comes better understanding of eachother.

Pavel and Roo, yall know how to get ahold of me and if for some reason I get banned from here then you can contact me through DeeZR6. I am all for the "true" meaning of photography. Giving back to the community and showing others, through pictures, what we see in each of you!

~Jennifer

 

I agree and also have no issues with you. I am completly serious about the donation!!!!!!! I will be at CMP next if it can be set up by then!!!