US Auto Industry?

I believe I read an article linked in here a few months ago talking about the tariffs imposed on them and that it's part of why they are building so many plants in the US to avoid the traiffs/taxes or whatever you want to call them.

 

http://www.cvma.ca/eng/issues/southkoreatrade.asp

"

In 2005, the government of Canada and South Korea began negotiations on a possible free trade agreement (FTA). Historically, automotive trade with South Korea, for all countries, including Canada, has been a one-way street because of a series of tariff and non-tariff barriers (NTB) that block the importation of finished vehicles into their new vehicle market. In fact, South Korea has the most closed automotive market of any auto-producing OECD country, with only 4% of new vehicle sales being imported, next to only Japan with just 5%. "


I think the tariffs the usa imposes are negligeble at 2.5 % vs the 25% that Korea uses that in effect closes their market. They only import 4 % of their vehicles, followed closely by Japan at 5%.

 

So I see alot of talk about the retirement pension for union people since im a union worker heres how ours works you make a hourly rate say 43$ per hour now on top of that you get medical andpension witch goes to the union hall every month they in turn invest it it todays market for a guy my age 35
then in 25 years when i retire my pension money has been invested in all kinds of markets for 30 years I would think the auto makers as well make some knid of return for investing a persons pension for 30 years
my .02

 

murf,

US Tariffs are all over the place, depending on existing treaties.

 

Which one? Nissan?

 

without getting into the details of tariffs I think we can agree that when a country only brings in 4 or 5% of the total vehicles and 95% of their vehicles are domestic its a protected industry by the gov't?

 

with the current disaster I'm sure alot of pension funds will find themselves underfunded.

http://www.knowyourpension.org/pensions/pensionfunding/pension_facts.aspx

 

Yep. Back in the mid `70's we used to suppliment our racing budget by buying used Z-1's, CB750's and GS750-1000's and riding `em into Mexico. My then tuner had a connection in Mexico City. We sold the bikes for double what we paid for `em (or more) then flew home. At that time, Mexico had a 100% tariff on non-domesticly produced motor vehicles.

 

Who do I have to kill for $43 an hour?

 

This is just a tiny fraction of misinformation here. GM still holds the majority of the $38 Billion in these Health Care funds for retirees: VEBA is the acronym for what you have mistakenly identified and misinformed on. GM has not agreed to hand over Pension management to the UAW.

1.) 3 million US jobs are directly related to the auto industry. Put that into the perspective of the currently unemployed, and receiving government unemployment benefits, @ %6.5 being approximately 1 million earners. Add 3 million to that and with simple math we have a total of approximately %25 unemployment, in the highest "middle income" wage brackets of $30K-$125K. Losing that size of a tax base, and paying out benefits will be ferocious.

2.) Chrysler's loan from the government was paid back early, with a $500 million dividend to the taxpayers. This is the same scenario with the $25 billion earmarked for the "Big 3"; it will be a loan for re-tooling currently existing US factories, for eco vehicle conversions, to be paid out over a 12 year period. Will they pay it back early with such a dividend as Chrysler did in the 80s? It's a gamble, but the gamble in loaning the financial institutions $2.9 trillion over the last 18 months has worked out just great, eh? AND, the Fed Reserve refuses to identify which institutions got THAT money.

3.) The Japanese manufacturer's are ALL subsidized by their universal healthcare, in Japan. A lot of their US factories are Union, pay $25 an hour, and have a similar healthcare package to other US autoworkers. They build in the South as the lower cost of living allows them to pay lower wages, and the southern states give them better/bigger tax breaks; southern tax payers are actually subsidizing those jobs there, in one way or another. It's a shell game.

4.) The US government is slow to do this loan/bail out as the Big 3 have been using Enron accounting for their profits/losses. The big 3 have also taken US sales profits and used them to build new factories in Indo Asia where employees earn less than 50 cents an hour, have ZERO benefits, and ZERO environmental standards. Enron accounting bases this year's profits/losses on LAST year's $$ figures. So, though your company may have made a net profit of $25 billion this year, it is less than the $28 billion net from last year, and can legally be described as a $3 Billion loss. That's what they've been doing, and that's why the government is so slow to give, this time.

5.) Many of you are driving "US vehicles" that were built with $1 an hour labor with zero benefits paid to those workers in Mexico, South America, S. Korea; ZERO healthcare, no vacation, no overtime, no sickdays, no Holiday pay, no education monies, no pension, or unemployment benefits. Were you charged less for that vehicle? Do you blame a Union for that?

We drive American made vehicles now, because it is the true trickle down effect of supporting my neighbors, and that support comes back to us when they can patronize our business as a result. We buy Union because they support us with their business monies and a strong tax base in the community and state. If you cannot see that $$ cycle and how it moves within us and our communities, maybe you'll get your chance to see how it does NOT move around.

 

So what you're ^^ saying is;

Government needs to get out of all it's tangled webs in order for the negative ripple effects of bad regulation and money redistribution (via forced taxation) to go away so that costs will normalize.

Big three union employees better consider getting paid a market wage if they want the company to continue being solvent, and thus keep their jobs.

Japan's nationalized healthcare system which supports it's employees is overhead for Japan being able to do business and w/ a true free market system American's would be able to produce equivalent quality products at a reduced price and have better insurance.


Well, I agree w/ you. :up:

 

^^

Not so sure I understand your first point, as it's written, but sort of? The government needs to outlaw the sorts of tax evasion that were legalized with Enron's accounting styles; It has bankrupted the government itself, while making corporations rich beyond any estimations that were possible, or are available.

The Big 3 Union employees have already been making concessionary contracts over the last 10 years; unskilled maintenance workers being replaced with $10 an hr people who have zero benefits etc., and taking $10-15 an hour paycuts in other areas. The savings have been monstrous. So, as with the $2.9 trillion in loans given out to the financial sector over the last 18 months we should be asking the Big 3,..." Where'd the f&^%ing money go?"

I understand the anti-Union sentiments that are so prevalent here, right down to beer production-. However, if you are wanting to point the stinky budget finger at UAW employees and retirees you'll have to do the same in every sector of our economy; police, firefighters, teachers, airlines, oil & gas, electrical, plumbers, state and federal workers, and on and on. The Unions are not the problem so many want them to be. Budget shortfalls all across the country are the fault of union wages? I don't think so.

This corporate based government has socialized the losses of the financial sector to the tune of $2.9 trillion, so far, but has privatized the profits. Profits should be private, right, but why are we paying for their losses? Why not help the auto sector where the dividends paid back can actually be seen and felt, rather than a financial sector that has "lost" the monies in foreign lands? Weird shit.

 

Just about any union here in chicago will pay at least 43
The next time the sprinklerfitters have a test ill let you know

 

I was being a smartass.


W/ regard to taxes and loopholes; I believe this country *must* go to a flat Federal tax system whereby there are no loopholes, there are no complexities, and we're all pounded in the ass w/ the same size government dong. You alluded to the "shell game" in your previous post; that game will always exist w/ discriminatory regulation and taxation as it exists in its current form. (side benefits; minimal IRS, near zero tax complexities, no more paying a CPA, fewer lawyers, and reduced administrative overhead, aka government)

W/ regards to the big three, or any other company for that matter; if they're mismanaged they should die. Covering somebody's ass supports their behavior.

I'm actually not anti-union. I support people's ability and desire to band together. But I also support personal responsibility. If you want to hang yourself by being too greedy, so be it (I also recognize they have taken cuts ).

We the People should not be supporting all this institutionalized discrimination.

 

Unions are only part of the problem, but they are a problem. GM, Ford, and Chyrsler (but mainly GM) also have way too many dealerships, which they can't close because they're franchised. This is why dead brands like GMC, Buick, and Pontiac are still around in North America.

GM needs the sweet bliss of Ch. 11. When you have over 40 products spread among 8 brands and your motto is "rebadge, rebadge, rebadge!" of course you can't focus on developing products that people will buy.

GM's primary problem is its culture, they need fresh blood. Ford has been turning itself around because Billy Ford brought in an outsider to lead the company. Unfortunately, GM has shown none of that same willingness to try something new. GM's business strategy is to HOPE FOR A MIRACLE, and that's why they're undeserving of a single cent, and why giving them any money is a bad idea, no matter how it's structured.

Jobs will be lost no matter what, jobs NEED to be lost for these automakers to survive, they're currently too big for their britches. That's the problem with unions, and with proposed government intervention, it won't allow these companies to dynamically deal with their issues. People need to be fired, and factories need to be closed to allow financially healthy automakers. If we give them money, the UAW and Michigan politicians will ensure that no jobs are lost, and no factories are closed. Do you think piles of dung like Nancy Pelosi are going to make the hard decision to throw thousands of workers on the streets simply because it's the only intelligent thing to do? Puh-leeze.

 

Why point the finger at people that are not asking for a bailout?

Now I've heard suggestion that the type of credit loans given to chapter 11 co.s so they can continue to operate are no longer available in sufficient quantity anyway. I get that the financial bailout is intended to prevent it spreading and the entire economy melting down. GM shutting it's doors is a big hit but I don't see how that will go beyond related/dependent companies. You'll still be able to buy a car next year.

 

None of the 3 million people out of work from the auto industry and it's suppliers will be able to. Not to mention the severe reduction of their other discretionary spending...

 

3 million people will NOT be out of work, GM will still be making cars, there will be very little if any shut down in production initially.

GM, in its current state, is not capable of surviving. GM needs to reorg to survive. None of these bail outs should have happened. Its pandering plain and simple. All we are doing is delaying the inevitable and worsening the downside when it does.

 

Using public sector employees as an example doesn't help your argument.
Police fire and teachers are great examples of people making way too much money with benefits far beyond the average worker with no accountability for doing a good job.
Early retirement with great pensions, a ridiculous amount of sick days, and payback for not using all of them, great health care with minimal payments by the employees. A number of cities and states are slamming the average citizen with increased taxes to support all these benefits.
Feel sorry for the union workers who bargained for, and received, wages and benefits far beyond what they were worth? And now their fat pensions and overpaid jobs are in jeopardy?
Cry me a river.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081115/ap_on_bi_ge/auto_bailout_gettelfinger

Looks like the Unions are being greedy again. Its time to end this. GM needs to file and show that if Unions only pay attention to their own wallets with no concern for the hand that feeds then their jobs will be gone.