The Problem With Vintage Racing...

Let's take a look at vintage racing, what we do and why we do it. Vintage racing has pretty much been around for a long time. From what some old timers have told me there has always been obsolete race bikes that have been raced long past their competetive life span. Sometimes there has been a class set aside for them in the club level. Later, in the 80's, some race bike collectors got together and wanted to organize their own events or classes, just so that they can race their cool old bikes, like Manxes, G50s,etc. This is how AHRMA and USCRA eventually formed. With this new found organization, by word of mouth other old-motorcycle enthusiasts with old race bikes joined the clubs and raced themselves. By the late 80's, vintage racing was getting lots of press and more people who heard about it came racing. Spectators even came to the tracks to watch! The rise in membership and popularity waned after the heydays in the mid-90's.
I'd like to look at the pattern that many racers experience when they get into vintage racing, and maybe why they eventually quit. Firstly, you need a race bike. Some racers, like the collectors mentioned earlier, already had a real race bike to ride. Some had found an old race bike and had the money to buy it, maybe the resources to get it running even though the parts were not available or hard to find. The other, vast majority, built their own out of old street bikes. Today, we see few original production race bikes but many, many, that are built-up street bikes. The first problem is that the rules are written for the production or "kitted" race bikes. This means that to be competetive, a racer needs to spend lots of money to hot-rod their bikes and, as a result, make them far more fagile and expensive to run. People start out excited to go racing with a low-cost old bike and then get frustrated when they find out how much trouble it is to make an old street bike fast enough and keep it from blowing up and breaking all the time. Membership looses people who get tired of not being competetive and fixing broken bikes. AHRMA comes close to a fix with their Historic Production classes but with the fatal flaw of allowing engine mods. Their focus seems to be on the "look" of the class by mandating stock exhaust and pegs, but expecting the old standard of converted street bikes by allowing the expense of race pistons, cams, headwork, etc. USCRA had it right with their "fix" of the CB350 being too fast for it's class, restricting the bike to totally stock engine and carbs. The concept of the "stocker" CB350 stands for itself-huge popularity. What I'm proposing is that we extend the concept to many other bikes-why not a stock-engined RD350? how about CB450? All we need to do is find an appropriate class for them to ride in. In the interest of ease of maintainance, lets allow electronic ignition-NO WAY do I want to screw around with points at the track! Lets make them real race bikes, fun to ride, with race exhaust, clipons, rearsets-this stuff doesn't cost that much and doesn't break every other weekend. I'm going to think about certain bikes and what classes they would belong in-of course, some dyno testing would help to classify some bikes, I'd like to test some bikes myself to see what their up to. How about some feedback on my idea? Does anyone have some proposals for stock-engine bikes in any particular class? Let me know what you think.


Stan

 

How about stock GS450?

 

Stan:
That was what the Formula RD idea started out as. but then it got modified, and modified, and modified. What is wrong with the old ERA/WERA "D" Production rules? You could use alternate handlebars and footpegs. We removed the head light shells, tail lights, and turn signals. Used the stock everytlhing else, including the pipes. Made for some very close and fun racing.

I too would permit modern ignitions, jet changes, and any gaskets. Probably would need to permit slotted rods and alternative pistons, but that should be it.

That might solve some of the problems, but the biggest problem is that we are just not a motorcycle nation. There just aren't many guys around that want to go out and race an RD350 or a Honda CB350. I have friends that used to race every ERA/WERA event with me on their RDs and you can't get them near the track now. Maybe, if we play our cards right, we can keep some of the guys that are/were riding 600cc rockets interested and get them transitioned into vintage riding, but I am afraid that we just can't get the old guys back. Maybe if we had one or two stock bike events a year, say the Jennings Pre-Daytona round, and someplace else, we could get a few people but I don't think WERA can afford the time and we sure couldn't do it on our own.
Lyn Garland

 

I'll provide a slightly different perspective since I'm probably one of the younger vintage riders out there. I feel it boils down to education and exposure. I researched for about 4 months on what to start racing with. I took the time to get on the bbs, ask many questions, and then drive to 2 wera events to see for myself what's going on. My natural instinct was to convert my open class modern bike, or buy an already prepped 600cc bike. However, upon learning of the multitude of classes available I knew a lightweight bike was for me. Then, it came down to what do I want from racing? I knew I wanted competition, but I also didn't want to race against a pack of 20 somethings willing to stuff you in every turn for a wood trophy. I also realized that I want to do this for many years so buying a bike that won't be obsolete 2 years after purchase was important as well. So, that basically left vintage bikes or GP bikes. I felt a 250 GP bike was too much work and too much machine for me to start racing on. I really wanted a 125 GP bike, but the class turn out is very poor. So, vintage was left. Since my first street bike was an RZ, I decided that was the way to go for me. Since then, I have drawn a few riders into vintage racing with this thought process. Most younger guys don't know this form of racing exists in such an accessible format. Also, it's way cheaper than modern bikes which is a huge draw for a lot of guys out there IF THEY KNEW ABOUT IT. The V6 and V7 classes are a huge step in the right direction to help grow vintage racing. Think about it, most of us race what we grew up on. Sooner or later there has to be an age shift on what's considered vintage.

 

Let me clarify my proposal...I do not want to add any more classes or have special events. I would like "stock engine" bikes to be allowed to race in the existing classes. For example;

250GP-stocker DS7, Ducati 350, Honda 305 superhawk, Suzuki X-6
350GP-stocker CB350(already there!),
V1-stocker BMW R60, Honda CB450, RD250
V2-stocker BMW 750, Honda 550&750, Yamaha XS650, RD350, Ducati 750
V3-stocker BMW R100, GS450, Ducati 900,Kawasaki KZ550,YamahaRD400, XJ550
V4-stocker Honda CB750F,KZ750, KZ1000

Basically, droping one class per bike. A full-built bike in it's primary class, for example, a Buff Harsh CB350 in V1, will still be the most competetive V1 bike- a stocker CB450 will not match the horsepower, but will be competetive enough to want to race.

What I want is to be able to do what the modern guys do-buy a R6/F4, pipe & jet kit, race prep with removal of street equiptment whatever bars and pegs you want. No expensive engine work. How many modern racers will be out there if there were only superbike rules? The pro engine builders will get more buisness, the grids overall will be smaller.

This is not a cure-all for losing racers, there is a pattern of new racers racing for three years and then getting out. This proposal is to adress a specific vintage problem-with the exception of the "stocker" CB350, the rules are ALL superbike rules. Here's another perspective, every racer has a budget-one can spend their money on going to events, or go to fewer events because money is needed to fix, or build-up their bike. The proven example I have to hold up is the popularity of the "stocker" CB350- by far, the most popular bike in USCRA. In the northwest, a group of racers are riding stocker CB160's-and having a lot of inexpensive fun in the process.

I'm hoping to attract the vintage street riders out there to take their nice CB750, or whatever, to the track-with no permanent changes to the bike. The "D" production rules are right on the mark-although I'm scared of riding with stock pipes! I've crashed too many of my street bikes back in the day when the pipes ground!

This may also be the time to open up classes for the modern vintage bikes to race with stock engines-there has been a lot of critisizm of certain bikes being too competetive-again, all under superbike rules.Something to think about.

 

seems to me the people that are crying about the rules are mostly looking to form there class to fit there budget or bike. racing is racing an if you dont feel like your ride is competive ...well then get or build a new one.

 

Stan Lippert posted (in part):
What I want is to be able to do what the modern guys do-buy a R6/F4, pipe & jet kit, race prep with removal of street equiptment whatever bars and pegs you want. No expensive engine work. How many modern racers will be out there if there were only superbike rules? The pro engine builders will get more buisness, the grids overall will be smaller.

One of the dangers in talking about Vintage bikes is defining what Vintage is. A Honda CB 750 of V4 fame or an RD is one thing; a Honda CBR600 F2 of V7 is another. My remarks adress the V6 and V7 "vintage" bikes.

The V6 and V7 machines are being raced by persons who more than likely "picked up" the machine used and as a race bike. Exceptions such as Ward Cook and perhaps Dale Borroughs come to mind as persons who built their machines when new. These 2nd hand machines were more than likely slightly modified to fit Superstock rules after WERA abandonded Production rules. Granted, V6 LW machines are more modified (i.e., FZR 400). Rare is the V7 bike that was built to Superbike specs. More modern street machines only needed to be fine-tuned rather than built as are/were the bikes of the 60's, 70's and early 80's.

Stan (and I and others) tore apart RDs, BMWs, Triumphs Hondas and the like and spent untold hours and dollars to make the machine more competative and place on the podium. A V7 machine needs significantly less investment in time and money to do the same. Stan and I can race RDs and the better prepped machine (Stan's)will win. A race between Stan and I on identically prepped RDs means the better rider (Stan ) wins.

What I see in V7 is a collection of machines and riders that are fairly evenly matched. A V7 machine needs significantly less investment in time and money to be competative as a V3 or V4 bike. Most of these bikes were sorted out by Experts chasing contigency monies. Yes, younger guys, even Honda paid $ "way back then in the early 90s." Maybe a head needs attention, maybe seals, but with parts and proceedures that are fairly easily obtained and performed. This is not said with malice, but I doubt there are many 20-somethings out there racing V7 that know how to port a 2-stroke. Heck, this 55-year old only does "monkey see-monkey do" porting and does not have the background to do the engineering based on piston speed, pipe design, intake track length and shape, scavenging, etc.

AHRMA would laugh at V6 and V7 bikes. WERA does not. WERA has these classes to give the racer with an older machine a place to race competitively for a win, not racing for 30th out of 45 riders in C Superstock.

I 99% agree with Stan's post. Where he says I'm hoping to attract the vintage street riders out there to take their nice CB750, or whatever, to the track-with no permanent changes to the bike. The "D" production rules are right on the mark-although I'm scared of riding with stock pipes! I've crashed too many of my street bikes back in the day when the pipes ground!, I would simpley substitute FZR 600, CBR F2, GSX-R 600, etc.

OK, maybe not a "nice" F2, since most V7 machines spent most of their life on the track or being crashed on the street before going to the track. Whatever the background, a V7 machine can be competitive with minor modifications that most serious sport riders make anyway (jetting, pipe, pads, tires, suspension, gearing, etc.). Who needs to make a Superbike and spend that kinda cash when you ca do it cheaper? Still getting beat? Get some more seat time. I know my FZR 600 can be ridden MUCH faster than I ride it. I just need more track time and do not need to build a Yamamonster motor.

When I propsed V7 to the VRC, it was accepted but held at arm's length by the "true" Vintage guys. To their immense credit, they admitted little knowledge of a Honda F2, but were willing to bring more racing into the WERA Vintage fold. In the past 2 years, V7 has become one of the best attended grids in WERA Vintage. I anticipate V6 LW doing the same. All because some old guy who runs races saw a need for a class where the older-but-modern bikes could race and the riders have fun without spending a lot of money.

 

I have to agree with RD on how cheap V7 is. A friend of mine had a wrecked 95 CBR600 race prepped( we endurance raced it on '02). He didn't think it was worth selling to anybody since it was a wrecked streetbike with a parts only title when he got it, so he gave it to me. I put some tires on it and ran. No gearing, no motor work, nothing. Just bodywork and a bent frame. I had a great time racing with a buch of good friends, now. I was able to take 3rd in the southeast, just barley, on this same bike with no special tuning.

I will race that class as long as I get to keep the bike. V6 is another story. I will have to get my hawk out and tune it pack into running condition and see what it will do. I really miss racing it so I am glad for the class. I just hope I have the time to make the bike go.

 

So Stickboy is bringing the poor-sad-hawk back to the track!

 

I hope to. V6lw would be a great place to play with that poor-sad thing. I hopw I get time to fix it up this winter.

 

Stan,
I understand where you'e trying to go with this, but "stock" may be a stretch for a lot of the old bikes. Think how many junkyard RD's you open up and discover "porting". OK, a lot of it is shit and won't make the bike faster, but never the less it is not stock. I'm not sure how many motors can stick to this ideal.

 

The issue with all stock classes are specifications and enforcement.. I used to race go-carts in a stock class, they handled it by MANDITORY tear downs of the top 3 minimum (some races teardown was part of tech for everyone)

I think there is the distinct possibility of similar issues with non-teardown stock classes that exist with the modified classes. I think some would become convinced that a run away winner was cheating.. and again the frustration would rise and they may quit….

This past year I made some strides with my riding, it sort of just happened.. I made no change to my bike, several competitors insisted that I have made some major modification to my motor, it was just their impression.. Buff has been torn down at AHRMA events numerous times in the belief that a rider cannot be that much faster than the field on skill alone.

I share Carl’s concern with parts, even with the mods allowed in F-RD there were issues with the legality of parts… and there are potential issues with changes between model years… .010/.015 off a set of RD or 350 Honda heads would make a difference, how would we check for that? How would someone know what was stock?

I question stock pipes… availability and ground clearance/safety. For the R5’s/RD’s maybe stock could/would mean “DG” pipes are stock…. This would provide a level playing field, most stock RD pipes I have seen for sale go for decent $, DG’s are not expensive, maybe we could get them as a product sponsor for the RD class….

I am not suggesting any of these issues are reasons not to try what you are suggesting Stan, I think these issues have to be anticipated, participation is what we are trying to improve.

 

I've been scratching my head all day on the problem of writing and enforcing rules for a stock bike-and I don't have an easy answer to the problem yet. A vintage "superbike" IS easier to inspect in a teardown-usually an oversized piston is the only practical cheat and would be determined with a simple bore measurement. No need to inspect piston shape, valves, headwork, deck height or cams-anything's allowed. I'm convinced that the "stocker" bikes I'm proposing will be classed not on equal parity with the top bikes in the class, but slower-even if some hidden engine work is done. To get a runaway winner with a four stroke, one would have to make some obvious modifications that would be easy to see during a teardown, such as a big cam, high-dome pistons, or port work. Two-strokes will need port height measurements during a teardown, piston skirt length measurements for piston-ported engines. When any bike is classified, we need to document the port maps to make inspections easier. I don't think it will be a big problem. All we need is a spec. book and caliper on hand for those rare teardowns. Vintage motorcycle racing has a pretty low-key bunch of people racing in it, at least from what I've seen. There is no excessive teardowns of CB350s in USCRA, and I anticipate the same with other "stocker" bikes. It is sad to hear of Buff getting torn down in AHRMA, it makes WERA Vintage racers look more sportsmanlike in comparison.

As for a spec. exhaust for RDs, that's up for discussion. Any thoughts from Mark M. or other RD racers on all this?

I'd like to know how the ERA/WERA "D" production classes were enforced back in the day. Maybe Lynn can comment on that?

George gives us a rousing sermon on the attraction of racing a V7 bike, inexpensive, competetive, and popular.(Reverend Rain Director?) Do we need to specify V6 or V7 bikes as Supersport or Superbike to preserve these ideas?

Thanks, Stan

 

My mentor and tuner, Gary Stumm, thought of the DG idea 5 years ago. I'd be for it 100% if the F-rd class we're ever to re-surface. They're cheap, readily available, offer better ground clearance, and mimic (more than any other exhaust's out there) the power delivery of the stock system. Too bad we couldn't get DG in on this. It could be good for both parties....
Enforcing porting and other motor work would be a bigger problem than you give it credit for though. People will always look at the winner in a spec class and think that he's cheating. I know that tearing down an rd is a pretty simple affair, but WERA Vintage has always been very reluctant to have to tear-downs to enforce a rule, rather relying on visual verification of elegibility.
I sympathise with Buff's situation in AHRMA. I can't tell you how many times that I heard in the pits that our rd had a long rod motor, or was 430cc's, whenever I would run away with a win. This was after races where I was constantly passed on the straights by hordes of maxed out rd400's, only to repass everyone wherever there was a braking zone. You ran away with a fair share of your own as well. I'm surprised that neither one of us was ever torn down. I would have welcomed it, because, as you know, we were running a 350, completely by the book. (I'm sure you're 400 was 100% legal as well!)
Still, I think it's a cool idea to include "stock" bikes into the existing class structure. It's just a little too late to do it right now. Maybe for '05? Just like Hybrids and Factory RR machines must bump up, maybe stock machines could bump down? Just my .02...

 

Stock Class

I am not going to get rid of my F-RD spec parts (wheels forks etc) I would convert my bike back if/when such a class was created again. I would LOVE to race a stock motored bike with DG's I may keep a watch out for a set Of DG's just in case....

I think there is strong motivation among the riders to be absolutely legal. I am not worried that there would be a bunch of cheating, just acknowledging that the conflict WILL arise and the VRC must anticipate this and have rules in place to handle it in an expedient and fair manner. If there is a tear down rule up front EVERYONE will be aware of it and it will be accepted. I am unsure why but there is a stigma attached to the act of protest, we need a system that eliminates this if possible.

I agree with Stan and Mark checking a 2-stroke is easy and a 4 stroke is harder to hop up with out it being recognizable. The main issue for a stock RD class will not be porting, it is easy to measure. I made a set of check gauges for the VRC/Tech to use in F-RD for cylinder height and reed valve modification. They were simple go-nogo gauges. The same can be done for port timings, no caliper would be necessary. It will be CR/combustion volume that will be the issue, who is going to CC a head at the track?

1979 Daytona Cylinders have completely different port timings, would you allow them to be matched to the older (more radical) years timings? what would you propose for the chassis and equipment on these "Stock" bikes, Stock Tanks? seats? controls? footpegs? wheels? Suspension?

 

Hey, now we're talking. What in the heck happened to Formula RD anyway. Great concept, enjoyed it, built bikes for it. DISCONTINUED!!!!!!!!

AHRMA really screwed up by apparently lifting the old AMA Superbike rules for their production classes. That was idiotic and they just wouldn't listen. I'm not sure they really understood what they'd written.

Real production classes would be great racing and affordable.

WERA used to bring 40+ Production RD's and later GPZ's to the grid at times.

It's easy to enforce. If you think he's cheating cuz he just walked away from you down the straight you pay your money for the teardown. Ooops, you goofed. He just got a better drive? He gets to keep the money!

When I get done changing tires for Josh on the National circuit I'll be back in Vintage and I'd prefer to be back in a Vintage Production class. (Might be an SV650 in V11P by then.....)

 

I feel bad after reading the above. No one has ever protested me . . . .