Asians oversell horsepower-cars

Being in the industry, I found this kind of interesting.

Toyota, Honda inflated claims of engine muscle; new tests force automakers to come clean with buyers.

Notice how the American automakers are spot on or even low in their estimates. HP is a big influence on purchase decisions. Knowing the American media, this is probably the only article you will ever see on this. :down:

Flame away.

 

Interesting yes, but a bit odd too. Who buys a freaking Camry for performance ?

OTOH, a friend had his Z06 on the rack recently and Chevy sez 405hp or something like that and it ended up dynoing at 353hp

Conversely, a different friend that has a Misterbitchy Evo 8 MR put up 255 (Mitsu sez 276)

So I don't expect that its only the foreign cars that are having their numbers inflated.

I know....405 at the crankshaft...but that doesn't mean anything. Power at the wheels is the only TRUE measure. I don't care how big the drivetrain loss is or what the 'correction' is....power at the wheels under any conditions is the only REAL measure.

Yes, atmospheric conditions can drastically change the outcome, but dynos can also be 'fooled' very easily by manually entering favorable climatic conditions. I've seen it done many times.

For whatever reason, people like to think that they have much more power than they really do, maybe its ego, maybe its the fact that they bought all the BS marketing crap about 'adds 20hp' and think that the effects are cumulative...who knows.

In any case, its not a one-sided deal by any means.

 

I never bought into the idea that a V6 Camry (210 hp) could have about as much power as the Mustang (225 hp) I had a couple of years ago, but it's nice to see the manufacturers get called on it. I suspect the hp inflation came about because of the import tuner craze, and then it trickled into the rest of the cars in the showroom. Either way, I didn't buy my Camry for performance, so it doesn't matter to me. It would be nice if my insurance went down a little since horsepower is taken into consideration.

 

I"m having some trouble accepting the idea that people buy Toyota Camrys based on HP output. People buy them because they are very reliable, very safe, and they retain resale value. If this were a big issue for performance models (say, 20% differences) it might be more compelling, but as it is, it seems like a non-story to me.

During the year-and-a-half I sold new and used cars (yes I still feel dirty) I can't remember a single conversation about HP that didnt' involve a 'fast' car. Nobody cared about the HP rating of a Legacy wagon, or a Sentra, or whatever.

 

But the numbers arent bein inflated on the domestics. 405 crank hp is what the companies use, that's how the industry is. if you want to know the stock rwhp then slap it on a dyno. I do agree that everything should be rated where it meets the road. most foreign manufacturers use only BHP which is what EVERYONE should do imho. So dont say they numbers are inflated, pull a engine and slap it on an engine dyno and i guarantee it pushes over that mark.

 

But crankshaft numbers don't mean diddly, so why make them the 'standard' ??

Aside from that, its much easier to test without removing the engine from the car.

No wonder the American car industry is in the toilet

FWIW, for my $$$ I wouldn't touch one. Not even a pickup for towing. I'd rather have the Tundra, even if it is considerably more than the comparable GM/Ford/Dodge

 

then you obviously dont know trucks. The ONLY truck to buy would be either a 12v cummins or the 24v cummins, but the 12v is BULLETPROOF. I've seen '99 rams with 257k miles sell for $9k. I know plenty of guys who are still runnin their trucks with over 500k miles on 'em and only needing general maintenance and small repairs. And most of these trucks are turned up and see an occasional truck pull. We beat the piss outta these trucks and they just keep goin. Those foreign trucks look god awful and run like crap. Any truck that is gas is a pos, trucks need torque and a diesel puts out plenty and still gets 20mpg on the freeway.

 

Fine if your looking for a light duty truck. Crawl under one and take a serious look at the frame then compare it to a Ford or Dodge. Channel with stamped steel cross-members that are held on with rivets as compared to a hydroformed frame with cast through welded cross-members.

I saw a frame deflection test with Ford, Dodge, Chevy and Toyota.

The frames were mounted solid at the front with a single jack stand on the right rear section of the frame. There was a 4 foot bar mounted on the left rear side of the frame. With a 160 lbs man resting on the bar, a digital reading was taken measuring how much the frame flexed. Results:
Ford .468 inch
Dodge .698 inch
Chevy 1.625 inch
Toyota 6.672 inches

The Toyota, held together with stamped steel and rivets, looked like a spring board compared to the domestics. After seeing that, there is no way I would consider using a Toyota for anything remotely resembling a "work" truck.

 

Is now and ever has been. Besides, the numbers now are much more accurate than back in the heyday of the muscle cars.

In the `60's, the quoted HP #s were "gross" hp, rather than the "net hp we get now.

So what's the difference? Quite a bit. The gross numbers were done on an engine stand on an engine with no alternator, water pump or any other parasitic losses. And they were "flash" numbers. Fire up a hand-built, blueprinted, balanced engine cold and let `er rip. Take the peak number and call it a day. Guaranteed to make more power than anything that ever came out of the front door of the plant. Serious gear heads referred to those numbers as "brochure horsepower."

 

Just because something has 'always been that way' doesn't make it right, or even the best way of doing it.

I realize that you'll get different #'s on different dynos, and that is part of the problem, but if someone actually believes that a stock Z06 puts 405hp to the ground, their just deluding themselves.

 

I guess that means your work entails standing on steel rods that are stuck onto the frame of your truck?

 

And I thought my job sucked....

 

I am in the truck market and the Toyota is a dog compared to the US stuff. The Nissan Titan is nice but a 5foot bed and the brakes are way to small for the truck. Plus the hp numbers on the Nissan don't add up compared to the US stuff. I always believed the hp numbers on everything foriegn were jacked a little because of the US standard of measuring at the crank.

 

Nor did I say that it should be.

Oh, and if you and your frined thought it was 405 wheel HP, then y'all deserved what you got for not doing any due diligence or having a lick of common sense.

 

And you believe the "foreign" numebrs are measured where?

Oh, and in what way(s) is the Toyota a dog compared to the US stough?

 

I have a titan and i can atest to the breaks being just not up to par... as far as power goes though... the truck has nuts big time. I drove my buddies ford f150 2004 5.4 and my titan has way more nuts then the f150 from a stand still and from a passing a car on the highway. it will hammer the dodge (not the hemi) but very close... and the chevy is a fucking joke.... ask any other titan owners on here they will say the same thing... breaks need improvement but the motor is ALL there and then some..

 

a lot of the foreign numbers are brake horsepower (bhp) or the same as whp. Not sure if they adjust them for the crank numbers we use when they are sold here though, i've never bought new(and prolly never will)

 

Horsepower numbers are a marketing thing and the marketing guys are gonna advertise whatever puts their brand in the best light.

Like the Honda S2k. It makes big HP numbers, but at a jillion.s RPM and can't tow a bag of fortune cookies. `murican's are fascinated with big numbers. The truck ads are catchin' on. If you've got the biggest HP #s, advertise it. Of you got the biggest torque #s, push that and clam that's the really important #.

Don't have big HP or torque? Advertise tow ratings or payload. Whatever makes you look good. You know, like Brad with a new haircut...

 

The *only* reason I'd even consider buying a domestic truck is because of the availability of the diesel engines and the fact that you can put a Banks kit on them.

Somewhere I have a video (F350run.wmv if you feel like searching) of a full-boat monster F350 extended cab bitch-slapping some poser-boy in a Honduh at the dragstrip. The econobox gets a huge holeshot (dunno if it was staggered lights or the guy in the Fudd was sleepin' at the tree) but by the end of the pad the guy in the truck has caught him and has about 30 mph in hand on his way to (IIRC) an 11.4 pass

I can't imaging what the trans must be having to endure since that truck must weigh north of 7k#

 

No, that means I had the opportunity to witness a frame deflection test that verified the structural rigidity of the Toyota frame is shit.

The point is, if your going to tow 7,500 lbs behind a truck, do you want the frame that flexes less than .5 inches or the one that looks like a Slinky? In this case, stronger is better. If you can't agree with that, your trolling.

During the test they saved the Toyota for last. The typical response from everyone in the room was :wow: when he got off the bar and the thing continued to bounce up and down like a spring. I'm not trying to dis on Toyota but when comparing TRUCK frames, POS!