ZX10R Geometry Troubles

Hey all, I recently picked up a 2016 ZX10R and I've been having some issues with setup of the bike that I cant quite seem to pinpoint. The bike has the kit ecu, Ohlin's suspension front and rear, each with 10.0 springs. I weigh about 160-165lbs with gear. Rear shock has the stock 5mm spacer still installed. Measuring from the top of the fork cap to the top of the triple clamp the forks poke out 6mm. The bike came with the RR swimgarm which is 10mm longer than the standard swingarm. The SA length is 604mm. The bike has Evol Technology triple clamps with stock offset spacers installed.

1- The bike loves to squat and run wide on corner exits. I put in the 10.0 spring to replace the 9.5 that the bike came with and it helped the issue but only marginally. I added some more pre load which also helped a little. I am considering going up another spring rate but feel like I don't have enough weight for the stiffer spring to get the proper sags.

2- Mid corner I am always waiting for the bike to turn. When riding behind other superbikes they can carry more corner speed while I have to wait for the bike to turn and causes my mid corner to be slow in comparison. Flipping the bike quickly from full lean side to side is easy, it seems to do it easier then my ZX6R which I would think should be the other way around.

3- Under hard braking the rear of the bike wants to come around. I reduced the engine brake via the kit software which helped. Now instead of the rear only coming around on one side the rear will shake left to right like a dogs tail. I'm thinking I potentially removed to much engine brake?

Hoping some people here with more experience with these bikes can point me in the right direction.

 

Sound like the bike is soft front and rear. Is the running wide worse on long radius corners? How much preload do you have on the front and the rear?

 

I have no experience with ZX10R's. Having said that, when we worked with suspension tuners to get a proper setup (at a fast enough pace to win club expert events) sag was never considered or measured. I have seen other fast guys and suspension tuners mention that too.

On another note, measure your front suspension from the center of the axle to the top of the bottom triple clamp. This is because the suspension can be lengthened internally, at least on R6's. I used to do it the way you mentioned and then learned that isn't consistent, whereas the other measurement is consistent.

Edit: I agree with Mike, that I would also add more spring on both ends, but I have no clue if any of your other numbers are in a proper range for a ZX10. Plus I still always ran my guesses by our suspension guy and I was wrong many times.

 

This is where data helps sooooo much. A solo DL with pots front and rear would show you what's going on. Not saying that it's necessary but it's a huge time saver..

 

Bikes ride like that if either end is too short or too soft. The terrible exit and rear wagging around suggests that you don't have enough support from the front. I'd start experimenting with more ride-height, more preload, and/or more spring up front. If your preload is low, say around 6, I'd start there with 4 turns. Otherwise I'd start with ride-height, say 4mm.

Don't worry about sag and don't be afraid of stiffer springs. The change moving up a springrate is small. 10.0->10.5 is a 5% change. You have ~130mm of travel and generally ride in the middle half. Even at full max-braking near-bottom-out, the fork will only be ~6mm higher with the stiffer springs. Changing 4mm for the entire stroke by adjusting preload or ride-height is a larger change in feel. And of course, you could also go to 10.25 by mixing springs.

As Boman Forklift brought up, we generally dont use "mm above the clamp" because fork carts can be extended. So if you got that "6mm above the clamp" number from someone else that intended it to be used with extended carts, it might just be wrong and your front ride-height could be 10mm short.

 

Yes, long radius corners make the issue more apparent. I've got 8 turns of pre load on the front and 12 in the rear

 

The RR swingarm is no different than the R.

6mm fork height is on the low side (with or without extended forks). I start at 3mm but usually end up at 0mm (with 10mm extended forks). Running the forks that low will require a lot of spring up front to keep the rear from coming around on the brakes…I suspect that is probably the cause of that issue for you.

What shock length and total ride height are you running? Sounds like it may be on the short side. I suggest setting the shock length at 309mm and adding 6mm of ride height on top of the stock spacer (320mm total length).

10.0 is a little on the soft side up front but a good starting point. You can keep putting in preload as needed. I usually change spring rates once I’m up to 14 to 15 mm of preload.

100 rear is a good starting point, especially with 604mm swingarm length.

 

The 6mm measurement was from myself. I've played with the front ride height and going higher made the bike better mid corner.
I didn't know you could internally lengthen suspension. I'll start measuring the way he mentioned from now.

 

Are those measurements with cap extenders or internally extended like what was mentioned earlier in the thread?

I am not sure what my total shock length is at, how would I go measuring that?

 

@ZoliCanoli, @DDK732 works for Kawasaki and tunes ZX10’s and 6’s for MA racers. I would start with exactly what he said for your baseline. The other two guys are really knowledgeable as well.

Good luck and report back!!

 

Standard caps, internally extended.

To measure shock length properly you need to stretch it until it’s topped out and measure eye to eye length. You’ll need a shock stretch tool (suspension tuners will have one). 309mm eye to eye stretched, 5mm stock shim plus another 6mm ride height shim is a decent starting point when you’re running stock length forks at 0mm height. From there you can fine tune the balance with spring rates/ preload and damping.

 

For our Canadian tracks which tend to be very stop and go style, hard braking, sharp turn, hard on gas would you recommend looking into getting the forks extended? And if so how would you change the rear shock length to match the extra fork length?

 

Extending the forks is a common mod. More fork stroke helps with a few things, hard braking/ stop and go situations is one of them.

If you’re running a race shock it will have ride height adjustment on the lower mount. If it’s a stock shock you can’t adjust the length, just use ride height shims.

I would definitely find a reputable suspension tuner in your area to help you dial the bike in.

 

Bike has an Ohlins rear shock, I should've been more specific with that last question. I meant it in that if I was to extend the forks would your previous shock length and shim recommendations change?

I have been working with a suspension tuner in my area, but this thread has provided some fresh ideas

 

By "going higher" you mean "making the front end shorter", correct?

I've not found that a shorter front end is better mid-corner. A short front end will get the bike to transition quickly, but I feel like that sacrifices mid-corner stability and reduces apex speed. Really short makes the front end feel like it's going to tuck everywhere. And when I've set the front-end too tall, issues occur on entry first but mid-corner is still solid. I tend to run the front-end tall anyway, so it could just be me.

Finding a reputable suspension tuner can be tough. When I was racing, I found that I wanted to work with a tuner that has experience with racers at a high level on my specific moto. And I didn't want to work with the local tuner at a trackday that mostly sets sag. You may need to look around to find the best tuner for you and your riding.

 

No, by higher I meant increasing the front ride height. I played around with a lower front ride height originally but found that the higher front end worked better for me.

 

I would still start with 320mm total rear height with extended forks and add 1mm at a time as needed.

 

Awesome, thanks for all the information!

 

if its turns in initially well, change your clamp offset, you need more trail, try 4mm and put the forks flush

 

Fair warning, there are and have been so many people to claim they are suspension experts. And you have to be very careful with who you intrust your life or other loved ones lives on a motorcycle after they have done their magic!! Just my 2cents , I have seen some pretty good riders over the years go down in flames because they are listening to the wrong people!