2018 Vintage Classes

If I remember correctly, the 350 Honda in "stock" configuration came from the USCRA. If you went to Summit Point between 2004 and 2008 there were a bunch of 350GP Hondas racing, mainly piloted by blokes from the north east.

 

Yeah....good Ol Bucky!

They also have a class similar to V1 / Sportsman / F250 I think.

AMA used to call it Clubman, and / or .....formula I think.

 

Back in the day, i.e., before WERA Vintage allowed disc brakes in V1 and V2, a good running B50, ridden well, would hang with a V1 Honda 350, and get spanked by a V2 Honda 350. Matchless G50's and Manx Nortons - all 500GP (formerly Heavyweight Classic) legal - would spank everything. John Rickard's highly developed Triumph twin would run with the best, slightly behind the G50's and Manx's. Disc brakes provide further separation from the drum braked B50's. But then, brakes just slow you down . . . .

I am hopelessly confused about what the future (February 2018) class structure and rules are to be. Please understand - I am not advocating anything one way or another. Whatever everyone decides is fine by me, as is whatever The Great One decides, independent of what everyone else may want.

My current understanding is that the former 350GP, 500GP, V1 and V2 all run in a class to be denominated (called, characterized, known as, referred to as) 500GP. That class will be on track at the same time as V3 and V4. That class will race both Saturday and Sunday at all WERA race weekends, except Nationals.

Have I got that right? Is some part incorrect? Did I miss anything as it relates solely to those classes and that race?

Cheers,

Dave

 

Dave, you bring up what might be the missing link, V1 Honda 350s and V2 Honda 350s? The V2 makes mention of "V2 machines are the following: BMW R60; Honda CB350 with big bore kits" are these "big bore kits" to include the BoreTech/THR setups, or is there something bigger referred to here?

 

There is some pretty fancy HUGE bore stuff out there, and even stroker cranks.....Buff is the man there.

Davids V2 comment also caught my attention, but my mind went to CB450's, which would be V2.....???

Jack, those pistons are legal in a class you don't race, have been around longer than you or I, and are legal with ALL other orgs that I know of....geesh.....It is the "go-to" set up for CB350's everywhere, EXCEPT WERA 350Gp.....the world jack, think the world sir.

I also like Davids class recollection, and agree.....V2 could get kicked up to the next class and it wouldn't bother me either.

3....2...1...

 

Charlie, my research was two fold.
1) Bill Johnson had been racing his THR kitted 350 (362cc) in the V2 class in 2017, due to this still not finalized topic, after discussions with Sean. This may also have a bit to do with why he let the 350 racing fade at the end of the year? I had noted to Sean that the history of the 362cc kits (both BoreTech & THR) had been used by almost all the V1 350 Honda racers going back over time and that interpreting the rules differently would make all the 362cc kitted bike become cheaters retroactively. As it has altered the course of history already, I am hoping it my be cleared up in the discussion of vintage racing changes. So if you don't know why stuff is happening AND you haven't been to the track as a racer, perhaps asking about what you don't know would be advisable?
2) I am gathering information, should I decide to want to make "the leap" into a higher powered 350 when the rest of my bike's evolution is complete.

 

Do not look out the window . That was not a gunshot. That was the sound of my palm hitting my forehead. I decided last year to go vintage
racing to get away from the SV hordes. Now with the demise of F2smoke, I'm in V5 gridded with F2. DOH!!!

 

Thanx Jack, I do pay attention since I still have motors and bikes. So what changed to give anyone the impression they were not legal?...Misinterp? misunderstanding?....Sorry but, that would have to be a mistake, like the GS450.....????.....I know the overbore for twins has not changed.

Anyhow, I'm sorry to hear about Bill falling prey to this obvious misinterp or mistake, that's a shame.

Maybe that rumor or whatever IS what killed the class.

That would be more of a reason to not kill V1 and include it in 500GP

 

Guys - need help making some sense of this... being a newbie and weighing the costs something is not adding up...

After looking at the WERA AMA membership fees... I decided to check Ahrma for comparison... it’s much cheaper at $75 annually and no ama required.

Not sure why WERA fees are so high and they require an AMA license... with all the banter about classes I may just go AHRMA - seems cheaper and more stable... one newbies perspective.

Otherwise... I may have to sell my other cb350 just to get into the WERA game ...

Thoughts?

 

Lol,this little bit of banter is nothing compared to business as usual in AHRMA.

 

Thanks Jeff - any thoughts on the fees?

 

My $.02,

Doug has a good point about V3, let it run with V5 where it's always been and be able to bump up to V4.

Charlie, using your logic my V2 RD400 would class with F500/V3 bikes making almost twice the power. My stock bike just isn't any comparison to Jim's H1. The 2 V1 Honda 350s that have been around over the last few years both make more power than a stock RD400. I think the V2 bikes need to class with the other small bikes like has been suggested before or either move the stock RD400 to V1. If you read the rules, I'm not even allowed to bore the carbs, that is only legal on a RD350. The 400 has to fit Super Stock rules to fit in V2 and you look at whats allowed for a Honda 350 for V1 it's hardly even.

I' sure as we go forward changes can and will be made as we all see how things shape up.

DC

 

I'm not very okay with this because the full zoot Honda already puts my Seeley 7R at a disadvantage. And although I don't have a recent WERA record of much, I do have a long term history with WERA. However, if this is decided to be okay by the powers that be, then so be it.

 

Check the rules and build the RG400 V5 bike so it can race in Clubman too. If it is 396cc it is already legal for Clubman. V3 V4 and Formula 2-stroke bikes are already legal in Clubman. I think V5 bikes should be legal too but Sean would need to update the rulebook.

 

As if the mechanic doesn't put that bike at a disadvantage anyway...

 

Hey Barry, look forward to meeting you sometime sir. The AMA fee is part of the AMA Vintage Motorcycle Days deal.....AHRMA used to run the racing there, and when they did, THEY charged the AMA Membership fee. I haven't raced there (blew a motor the week before, and delivered the lump there, it was sad) but something tells me that WERA does a "cleaner" job of running it....the " alore" of an AMA #1 plate has always been attractive to me.

If the AMA deal has you on the fence $-wise, you have a hard road to hoe ahead sir....just sayin....

If cheapness is essential and critical to you being on track, the AMA fee with WERA is probably the cheap way out of your situation.....I like racing AHRMA ALSO, not instead of.....I liked running BOTH, which took me to the V1 spec Honda for the reasons I mentioned earlier, and away from what you and are jack are doing. The bump in $ became worth it to me, and I've never regretted it....I don't want to build and race a streetbike (WERA 350 or AHRMA LWP), I wanted to build and race a racebike....which I did gleefully, until I broke them all (Scudder?)

DC, I hear ya man, but I really don't know what to say. Your RD400 should run fine in V2 sir, altho I don't know the RD's all that well. I think as your skills rise so will your speed.....I mean the current RD in V1 is the RD250, so allowing a 400 in there would be quite the jump.....in contrast, Honda 350's are already in 500gp, as a "bump up" class for the stockers, so the V1 350 in 500gp is not as far of a stretch.......think about the V1 350 in V3, your RD400 bump up class????....that's the alternative......tough times and tough choices.

DC, you know I love ya man (no homo)....but an RD400 running with 350gp sounds like a stretch to me sir.

Come now Doc, you know those THR / Boretech pistons have been the benchmark Honda 350 for (in my best massage parlor oriental girl voice)..."Long Long Time sailor boy"...decades world wide.....as far as you and your Seely being threatened by the most commonly modified 350...seriously sir?....maybe Buff on his drixton, but he doesn't run V1.

If the most common Honda350 racing pistons in the WORLD suddenly became illegal in WERA, that would explain a lot.

Anyhow gents, interesting discussion for sure

V1 to 500GP is the right thing, sorry for those that disagree, but that is my technical opinion......aint worth squat, but there it is.

 

V1 with drum brakes into GP? There has to be some handicap for V1, or the newer bikes will take over. Lyn Garlands V1 RD250 will eat my GP DS7 250 around a track no matter how much I spend on it.

 

Thank you Charlie - I’m used to the hard road... I completely agree with racing a “race bike”- so at the risk of asking a stupid question or taking this thread off topic ... where do I find the V1 specs for a CB350?

 

I'd run drum. The current champ runs drum.

Hey, Lyn/Pauls bike runs circles around V1 CB350's too, so you are not alone Mark.

Hey, lets try it this way Mark....the typical WERA system is that a bike is in a "primary Class", and it can "Bump" into the next "class" (choir, I know, bear with me).....typically, that bump up class contains either a larger displacement, or modified versions of the same bike.

So, with that structure established, 350GP (Hondas) bump into 500GP class......but that "class" does not contain the modified version of the CB350....that seems "Out of structure" with the rest of typical WERA class structure.

Maybe....if you were gonna index in a stocker version into 350gp, maybe the modified version should have gone into 500gp from the start....????

Several ways to look at this.

 

Its all in the rulebook Barry, but "Tribal Knowledge" helps too.....I can help you with that sir.

Its mostly motor....a good stocker bottom end, kicker mechanism removed (option, weight), new clutches and springs...clean the sumps in the flywheels....a good (non sloppy) crank is needed. Check your shifter forks for scuffing (shifting issues later)....close ratio 5th gear is nice, but not required to start.

Top end is where the power (and money) is.....the most common piston kit in the vintage racing world (that or somehow became illegal, or misinterpreted, and are now legal again with WERA) is the way to go. ....THEN the head.

Theres a couple ways to go Barry. The GPZ route is also an option, and cheaper, but down on power.... The head can be alittle tricky (and carbs) there. The THR / Boretech pistons and certain porting, etc, is a "known"......The GPZ stuff, less porting, smaller or even stock carbs....development there.

We can talk any time you'd like sir....don't want to clog this thread.