Tired of arm chair pilots

True to an extent, but there are many real justifications. The 737 is a small plane when compared to the 777. Since 777s carry two to three times the amount of passengers per flight, the carrier's insurance requirements alone would demand a far more experienced pilot to captain the 777. No insurance == no flight. That's as real an economic justification as any.

Also, the amount of automation present in the 777 increases (not decreases) the amount of knowledge and technical sophistication required from the crew, and reflects the added workload they have to contend with. A typical 777 flight is also more complex than the typical 737 flight; most 737 flights are relatively short hops, while 777s tend to fly long etops routes (many 10+ hours.)

Finally, the added difficulty in flying a plane having twice the wingspan and up to four(!) times the takeoff weight is not trivial. It is much easier to fall "behind the curve" in a bigger plane.

-peekay

 

Papa, thanks for the compliment, but we all know that the whole BBS can't fill your debating shoes. No contest, we're completely defenseless.

 

Insurance has nothing to do with it. We are all qualified on whatever aircraft we train on. At one time my airline's pilots bid their equipment solely based on seniority and not by pay (longevity). We later were paid based on aircraft size. Most airlines have less widebodies than smaller aircraft. In order to appease the more senior pilots, the pay is higher on those aircraft. There is also economics behind it in that larger aircraft generate larger revenues and thus can accept higher wages. The pilots are directly responsible for the economic usage of the plane vis a vis fuel economy, on time schedule and passenger comfort. The millions of decisions made on every flight regarding the safe and economic completion of that flight may be more demanding on the larger aircraft. More flight attendants to deal with, more passengers and issues, international situations, long range navigation etc. It is most pilots desire to retire on larger aircraft that have better schedules (because of the longer flights and less legs) and higher pay. It is the natural progression. The technology on the 777 is identical to that on the latest generation 737s or 757/767s. To tell the truth, it is easy to jump from one new Boeing to another and our transition training is short because of this. But again, all of our pilots are type rated in the aircraft and the only difference between captains and F/Os is the date you were hired.

And long as the mechanics remember to tighten the bolts on the enging pylon, none of them will crash into your house

I was landing at LAX about 4 months ago when a United aircraft was taking off. His wheel fell off on takeoff and the tower was explaining to them how it was rolling down the runway. They were departing to the east that day and 5 seconds later it would have landed in some guys living room.

 

Ok,

So which one is more likely to crash into my house???

ML

 

Of course it does, though perhaps transparent to the pilots. Widebody aircraft are insured upwards of $2 billion each; if an upstart airline wishes to staff a fleet of 777s with less experienced pilots than industry norm, then (an expensive) rating would certainly be attached to its insurance policy. That's just common sense.

-peekay

 

We were never discussing "upstart" airlines here. I can't even think of an upstart worldwide that operates a 777. Insurance has nothing to do with whether a junior airline pilot or senior airline pilot can fly it. We are all ATPs with many, many thousands of hours of jet experience and are all trained above FAA requirements and type rated in the aircraft. It is not "transparent" to the pilot. Obviously a $100 million aircraft is insured more than a $20 million one. However, the pilots at the majors are all certified and trained above whatever FAA requirement and insurance, believe me, is not even a consideration.

 

I apoligize for my ignorance, I could not read this whole thread cause' I just got back from a 4 day trip.But I skimmed it, and from what I can see, we have a whole lot more airline people at the track than I thought, or people that think they know the industry. Anyway, Jay, you are right, the market supports the wages, that is just the way the airlines are, the profit margins for a major airline are tiny, even during good times. Sometimes you have to take a step back to go forward, (7.5, Didn't quite work, but look at what happenned later, United Plus!!!) Arrogant maybe..

As far as wildlife goes, It happens more than Roach thinks, I personally was Captain on a Brasilia that landed in Charleston, WV, during a December snow storm. During the roll out, two deer tried to beat us across the runway, unfortunately, we hit the two of them and sent a prop through the fuselage which hit a passenger and later killed her. Bad stuff, BTW 55 percent of nothing is nothing. Part 121 carriers are safer than you!

 

That doesn't sound correct. Where did you find that number?

STEVE....currently stuck at SDF with a broke airplane

 

These statements are uhhhh...nevermind.

 

Er, no ... it doesn't. Again, it is statisticly insignificant when compared to the number of flights and people flown. Millions fly, tens are killed.

On the other hand, 16,000 Americans are killed every year by drunk drivers alone. Add in the thousands of other common occurances that have significanly higher percent chances of effecting my demise and I am far more concerned about them than I am an errant waterfowl.

- Roach

 

It was a hypothetical, in case you missed it.

You know very well the FAA requirements are very low. Someone with ZERO jet time can simply take a two-week course and get both his ATP and say, a 737 type-rating. You don't think if a carrier staffed their fleet exclusively with these low-time pilots their insurance cost wont rise astronomically?

-peekay

 

"So THESE might me the most likely candidates to crash into my house?"



Seriously - No one ever answered may comment/question why so many people on teh sam eplane paid vastly different amounts for teh same ticket and why I can go Detroit to LA for less than Detroit to Knoxville. 2000 miles vs about 480 miles. It takes less fuel fopr ashorter fligh and gate fees at Knowville are less than LA (I would think) so what gives??

This has always stumped me.

ML

 

I am just bringing to light your quote as to why a 777 pilot makes more than a 737 pilot. Again, insurance has nothing to do with it. Can you name one airline flying 777s that could ever possibly have an issue with under experienced pilots not qualified to fly that aircraft? I guess if I went and bought a 777 and started an airline, I would have to pay the "experienced" pilots more than the "non-experienced". It may have been hypothetical, but certainly not a realistic scenario. We have been talking about AIRLINES for 4 pages...........

 

Like I mentioned earlier, it has not always been the case that different equipment pays differently. It evolved that way to allow the most senior pilots to acquire the most desired aircraft and routes. The most senior also get the most pay. It is a natural progression. It has also been negotiated based on the revenue the different aircraft types generate. Higher revenue large aircraft can accept higher costs from labor. The company is going to pay out X amount a year and the pilots are going to receive X amount a year. It really doesn't matter how it is aqcuired or on what aircraft. It does work out better on a seniority basis, however, and allows the most senior to be rewarded.

Different routes are more competitive than others. Trans cons (LA TO New York) have some of the lowest yields. It is all based on what in economics is called price discrimination. It is not a bad thing. We see it every time someone tries to sell something here in the classifieds. The same with everybody on the flight paying a different fare. The airline maximizes profits by charging everyone the most that they are willing to pay. That is why last minute fares are the most expensive. It usually means someone really has to get somewhere in a hurry and is more likely to pay extra to get there. A little competition from Detroit to Knoxville would drop that price. Noone may want to enter that market, however, if they will have to split the revenues.

 

Simple supply and demand. The routes that are most in demand can be sold at a higher price. More passengers, and thus dollars, chasing a finite number of seats. Routes where fewer seats are available have less supply, so the competition for available seats results in higher price.

 

Just a ballpark, I don't think it's very far off. I know the FAPA has done some extensive research on this, I could look it up if you think I'm nuts. In the industry boom days, that was not the case as pilots were hired from wherever they could be found, but in leaner times the ex-military guys get the nod. Again, my recollection of industry practices, can get authoritative detail if you want.

 

My friend is a Navy (F-14) pilot and they told him that Navy pilots are "a little hard on Equipment" at two different airlines (he was thinking of getting out but stayed in) . I guess that's because they are used to landing on a 300 foot long runway???

ML

 

what? made by a guy who A: is a licensed pilot. B: made by a guy who was an accountant for a major airline. or C: both.

 

financial analyst, but it's a detail. Maybe I would've been better qualified to answer if I knew nothing of what I'm talking about, as is the norm on the BBS.

STT-Guy: airlines have entire departments whose job is to figure out pricing. It is a very complex area. Selling one extra seat can make the difference between a profitable flight and losing money. Many times, your individual ticket price has nothing to do with what it cost the airline to get you to destination. It can be a lot more, or much less. What matters is the average ticket price on the flight. Last-minute travelers are often subsidizing vacationers. The trick is to allocate the correct number of seats to each category of passengers so your aircraft does not take off with empty seats. That involves a lot of statistical work.

 

All of it

Hey folks,
I really was'nt looking for atta boys from my post, from either you, or my passengers on that day. I was just giving you some insight on my latest interesting day. The only real point I was trying to make was, Let Greg do his own homework on the flying thing. I realize I came across a bit on the a-hole side of things. For that I beg the almighty BBS' forgiveness. I just wanted Greg to get the advise from people that actually fly for a living. Not he said she said advise from people who had a friend that tried and did'nt quite get there.
The pay sucks to start. That's a fact, put your time in and it's a pretty good gig. It's a long hard road to make the money. Only the folks who stick with it make the good dough. I guess what I'm tring to say is if you love it, do it, if you don't? Then there are many careers out there that will give you more fianacial security in a lot less time.
P.S. Lot of guys who have done some homework on here.
Good on you all. Whether I agree or not, you guys definately bring your game.
Good on you (each and every one of you) it's the American way.
P.P.S. PAPA THIEM Great job landing that popsicle that night. That's one I'm sure you'll never forget. One doe'snt have to be an a/l pilot to be a pro. My respet, and hat's off to you
Kevin #229