Tired of arm chair pilots

Kevin, why did you not spout this self-glorifying tripe on the original thread? When I commented before, I said you guys have a fantastic job. I do not disrespect pilots at all. I've run into a few with real attitude problems, but for the overwhelming majority, the Delta pilots I work with are courteous and professional. The problem I have is with ALPA. I believe they are making the hugest mistake in their lack of cooperation with Delta for wage concessions. Or have you not noticed that EVERY other employee group has taken cuts in about every area? ALPA could not care less about ANY other group, and that troubles me. Delta faces the very real possibility of bankruptcy, and whose best interest will THAT serve? Yes, I know that our management has made mistakes, but they are all we have. ALPA has to play ball, or Delta will not survive. Then all of these (very responsible) pilots will be out of a job (they all love) along with all the employees ALPA doesn't give a hoot about.

That said, Delta's management and pilot pay are not the only problems. Over-capacity is still the thing hurting the majors the worst.

So go ahead and slam away. I believe you are an example of that elitist mentality I mentioned in the other thread. You couldn't even do your job if my group didn't do theirs. Next time you're on a mechanical delay in a downpour or falling snow, take a good hard look at the mechanic signing your logbook so that you can comfortably fly to your next destination. He's the one who was just swimming in Skydrol or fuel, while you were complaining to your A-line that your coffee cup is empty. Also remember that his signature for the work performed can very well send him to jail if his work fails. No, his life wasn't lost, but you'd better not discount the responsibility or the dedication of this man.

Consider this a pat on the back for doing your job. Please don't mind the greasy handprint. You've earned it.

 

And why not? Phoenix, Las Vegas, St. Louis and Miami are among the world's busiest airports, ranked 5th, 9th, 11th and 12th respectively by movement, world-wide!! If these airports aren't "major" then I'm at a loss of what is.

Well the topic of conversation was landing with "absolutely no visual reference."

I'm simply going by what they are (or are not) certified for, according to FAA. But my point stands, not all of them are Cat III capable (eg. MD-80.) Also not all of their 737s will be Cat III rated even past 2005 unless they upgrade them between now and then.

-peekay

 

I'm a sarcasist MF, didn't sound carcasist to me.... But I was on my first cup of joe and confused by the where the whole thing came from....

 

Well there's your problem. Your mistake is to use total movements instead of total passengers, which is a better indicator of an airport's propensity to move airline traffic. That's what the FAA uses to classify airports, not total movements. When I worked for AA years ago large hubs were airports that enplaned at least 1% of total passenger traffic, but I don't know what the current FAA definition is. If that's still the case then maybe your four sneak in under the FAA large hub definition, but back in my AA operations days we referred to the majors as the top 10 airports by passenger traffic. Anyways, your data is partially wrong for 2002 for total movements worldwide - MIA was 18th and STL was 19th.

Here is the world ranking for 2002 based on total passengers from ACI (those guys are always a year behind - maybe you have more recent data):

1. Atlanta, Hartsfield (ATL) 76,876,128
2. Chicago, O'Hare (ORD) 66,501,496
3. London, Heathrow (LHR) 63,338,649
4. Tokyo, Haneda (HND) 61,079,478
5. Los Angeles (LAX) 56,198,447
6. Dallas/Ft. Worth (DFW) 52,826,304
7. Frankfurt-Main (FRA) 48,450,357
8. Paris, Charles de Gaulle (CDG) 48,303,439
9. Amsterdam, Schiphol (AMS) 40,736,009
10. Denver (DEN) 35,651,098
11. Phoenix, Sky Harbor (PHX) 35,534,463
12. Las Vegas (LAS) 35,009,011
13. Houston (IAH) 33,946,484
14. Madrid (MAD) 33,903,553
15. Hong Kong (HKG) 33,876,000
16. Minneapolis/St. Paul (MSP) 32,630,177
17. Detroit (DTW) 32,436,999
18. Bangkok (BKK) 32,177,245
19. San Francisco (SFO) 31,447,750
20. Miami (MIA) 30,060,241
.
.
.
30. St. Louis (STL) 25 626 114

OK, I'll concede to you that the planes that they are no longer flying and the ones that are marked for retirement in the next year or two are not Cat III certified. You can even include DC-3's.

 

You're right, there are always a combination of issues. AFA bird ingestion, isn't Boeing doing a lot to try to design around the problem? I remember reading about the engines on the 777 designed to ingest something like five birds without failure. And windsheilds have been designed to withstand bird strikes by FAA mandate for some time now. Nevertheless, any time you hit something in flight there is an opportunity for you to have a bad day.

 

Fine, if you want to use the latest ACI passenger data, look at their 2003 year to date, available here.

Phoenix is ranked 9th; Las Vegas 12th; compared to Denver (11th), Houston (14th), Minneapolis St. Paul (15th), New York JFK (18th), Newark (19th), San Francisco (23rd), Seattle (24th), Tokyo-Narita (27th), Sydney (28th.)

Are you really saying none of these airports are "major" airports? Sorry, I didn't know JFK and SFO are but "minor" airstrips, yet they must be, they're behind than even tiny Miami (17th.)

(edit) FAA's latest stats are available here. Under the 1% "large hub" definition PHX, LAS, MIA, STL and even SAN all qualify. Additionally PHX (5th) and LAS (7th) meet the top-10 definition.

-peekay

 

Starting salary for first officers (co-pilots) on regional airlines is somewhere around $ 18,000-22,000. Starting salary for first officers on national carriers is less than $ 30,000 a year, I wouldn't call that overpaid considering all the expensive training that these guys have invested in their careers.

 

oh my!!

Never thought you guys would get so fired up. USCRACERX, I've got no beef with you. I have the utmost respect for you guys. Many of my personal friends are mx's. Some are coming for Thanksgiving. The I'm better than you mentality has no place in our home. I fired off pretty heavy only in response to (in my opinion) guys who responded to Gregs post without a single fact about what we do. My take is we are still in this thing together. I think it was STEVE THOMPSON thanks I 'm sure you feel my pain. JOHNNYB my cheerios are still foating in good old vitamin D. The bird(s) strike thing did happen, no a/c damage but, it was interesting. Cleaned it up,then back to biz. Someone blasted me about the forum. I think it was something 333. punching the wrong button at 2:15 in the morning is still a forgivable sin (I hope). As for TORN7TH I can't comment on the schools you listed in Fl. (As I have not attended either)I know a couple of guys who live down that way. I will ask them. Plese feel free to mail me later. I think now may be a good time to be getting into the game. By the time you finish things should be looking pretty good
best of luck to you
Kevin #229

 

Maybe becuase the bus driver's are doing their job!

Anyone who doesn't fly for a living doesn't understand the potential danger of a bird strike, and has no valid input.

 

oh my what???

I am so very honored by the partial mention from someone at your station in life. Thank you, thank you, thank you. :tongue in cheek:

BTW, FWIW, there is only one "unforgivable sin" and that is not it.

My posted observation wasn't about "the forum". It was about your ill tempered comment. (see below) You felt justified telling your customers where to go, so I felt obligated to point you in an appropriate direction.

...Only to hear the passengers comlain about the firm landing. I felt like saying, Hey asshole I just saved our fu!!ing lives. A simple thanks would have worked in that situation. That's just one of the interesting events that have ocurred in my airline career. And you guys want to talk about money? You can't possibly fathom the Professionalism the airline pilots impart on day by day basis.
The only criticism I've read on this forum are from people who don't fly for a living. I only have to say "shut the fuck up"...

 

Sure, that makes real sense. Don't know about you, but I evaluate risk with a healthy look at the history of the occurrence event. Fact remains, never been a single, not one, none, zero, nada death on a US airline jet aircraft that has had a bird strike. Spin it any way you like, it never happened. Not in the entire history of US airline jet aircraft operation. Many, many millions of flights since Pan Am put the first 707 in the sky in 1957. Not since time began in passenger jet aircraft. And I don't need to be wearing a uniform to know that.

More people have died from absolutely any other cause of death, however obscure. Pick one, like falling on a lawn dart. So keep trying to convince me how we're all going to die from birdstrikes whose historical occurrence has been zero in many millions of exposures over a period of almost fifty years.

 

Then you need to get some new risk analysts.

How they formulate that an event that has *never* occured in 50 years has a 26% chance of occuring in the next 5 is rather interesting.

Was their previous employer Enron?

- Roach

 

Becoming an airplane pilot caused me to see things in a different light. I was only 20 years old, but the training, recognition of responsibility, and realizing that there was no one but me in charge of that aircraft and no one else there to help me, directly tanslated into all areas of my life. I remember when I got my license I was told that I was in the 1/2 of 1% of all Americans. That felt great to me, but I was merely doing something that I loved. Not everyone can become a good pilot, and even fewer can function at the airline pilot level day in and day out. That issue needs to be recognized. Training is only part of it.

A short anecdote. My son purchased a Seadoo jet boat (twin- engined) and took my wife and I for a ride. When we returned there was a stiff current and boat traffic at the loading ramp. My son was in mild panic as he could not get the boat into position and after 3 tries I said, "Give me the wheel." (Now I am no boater and have never owned one). I took the boat around, focused on my objective, stabliized my approach, compensated for the current, and drove it neatly up to the ramp...all the while instructing my son concerning what I was doing and why. My wife said, "I can't believe how easily you did that!" I replied, "I'm a pilot, baby! Planes, boats, trains, space shuttle, what's the difference?"

Good pilots deserve good money, great pilots are priceless. Trouble is the greatest pilot will be so good that no one will notice. Everything will seem routine and he will be considered lucky that nothing bad ever happend when he was at the controls. What a coincidence.

 

Look up the acronym CFIT and then look up the statistics.

Have a nice flight!

 

Whatever, I have been in a jet that almost crashed and the singular cause would have been ingesting a very large bird into an engine. To say it has never caused an accident so it never will just shows your lack of experience with the subject, that's all. The military and civil airline industry both spend a large amount of money and time to prevent bird strikes as much as possible. Stats can be twisted any way you like, I personally don't place a lot of value when snippets are plucked out of some report.

I live with bird strikes on a regular basis, I know they're a real threat. No stat will change my mind.

-edit- since tone of voice can't be read, no pissiness here, just explaining my point of view like you asked.

 

Not an airline I realize, but the USAF lost an E-3 (AWACS) and the entire crew in Alaska a few years ago due to geese.

 

Ah but "it" HAS occured. You can read a summary of the analysis here and come up with a more accurate one if you're such an expert on wildlife strikes. We've had ALL of the following happened:

* fatal birdstrike on private propeller aircraft in the US.
* fatal birdstrike on private propeller aircraft world-wide.
* fatal birdstrike on military propeller aircraft in the US.
* fatal birdstrike on military propeller aircraft world-wide.
* fatal birdstrike on commercial propeller aircraft in the US.
* fatal birdstrike on commercial propeller aircraft world-wide.
* fatal birdstrike on private jet aircraft in the US.
* fatal birdstrike on private jet aircraft world-wide.
* fatal birdstrike on military jet aircraft in the US.
* fatal birdstrike on military jet aircraft world-wide
* fatal birdstrike on commercial jet aircraft worldwide.

That the only combination of "fatal birdstrike on commercial jet aircraft in US" has not happened is the aberration, not the norm! A sample of what's we've had:

-In 1973, a Lear 24 taking off from Atlanta lost power on takeoff due to birdstrike, and crashed into a building. All 7 aboard died.

-In 1975, an Overseas National DC-10 flight out of JFK crashed on take off with 139 aboard. The plane was engulfed in fire and was a total loss. Luckily all passengers aboard were trained airline employees, who were successfully evacuated.


ONA Flight 032: miracle anyone survived

-In 1986, a Quebec-bound 737 with 64 on-board crashed in New Foundland. After hitting a bird on take-off the plane skidded off the runway and slid 375ft before coming to a rest in a bog 200ft past the runway end. Unfortunately one passenger was seriously injured.

-In 1993, another 737 hit 60 Ring-billed Gulls on take-off from Calgary. Both engines suffered major damage; the pilot managed to nurse the plane safely back to landing.

-In 1995, Air France's supersonic Concorde flying into JFK struck geese while landing. Two of its engines caught fire and had to be shut down mid-flight. The airplane landed safely, with an estimated $5.5 million in damaged parts.

-Also in 1995, an Air Force E-3A AWACS (Boeing 707 conversion) on a military training mission crashed 43 seconds after takeoff in Alaska. Plane was brought down by multiple bird-strikes into no.1 and no.2 engines. This was the first and only time an AWACS was lost during either peace and wartime. All aboard (4 crew and 20 passengers) perished.


AWACS loss in Alaska, 24 dead

-In 1998, Delta Air flight 1782 (a 727-200) out of Houston struck a flock of snow-geese at 6000ft. All three engines were severely damaged and its radome was destroyed. The First Officer's cockpit instruments failed and the airplane was vibrating severely. Two of the plane's three engines were damaged beyond repair with fan blade loss. The plane's third engine had a damaged pylon. The leading edge of both wings were damaged. Flaps on the right wing were punctured. The vibration was so loud the crew had trouble communicating with each other. The crew managed to land the crippled plane, and were it not for their skill, the results could have been catastrophic.


737 windshield meets bird

There are literally dozens of other serious wildstrike incidents involving commercial airliners in the US and Canada. Flying in general is very safe and thankfully we're blessed with some of the best professional pilots in the world. But if you think fatal birdstrikes can't happen here then you are severely deluding yourself. With the booming bird population and the move towards two-engined jet planes, the risk for a catastrophe is forever increasing.

-peekay

*photos courtesy Transport Canada.

 

Appreciate your opinion. I think you misunderstand my position - I never said that it will never happen - just that based on history there are a lot more things to worry about when one sits down as a passenger than bird strikes. History teaches us that if we're going to die in an airliner crash that 55% of the time it's because the pilot made a mistake (maybe after a mechanical failure or other cause, or maybe because they were flirting with a stewardess and forgot to complete the pre-flight). It also teaches us that the odds are pretty darn low that you'll die as a result of a bird strike.

So, to go back to my original point, the original poster's attempt to glorify himself and tell everyone to STFU because he's just saved your life doesn't sit well with me. As Jay said, it's representative of the worst arrogance that some see in some pilots. I don't know KevMac, and maybe he's the nicest guy in the world and a great pilot, and maybe he really did save lives that day. Good for him. But since everyone's life was in his hands from the moment that the tug started push-out, everything he did until he parked the plane could be construed as "saving their lives".

Pardon me if I appear to be disrespectful, that's not my intent. Just that when I get on an airliner what I'm thinking when I walk past the cockpit door is "Please, Lord, don't let these guys screw up."

 

All very interesting, but read my prior post. Never said it couldn't happen, just said it never has. For every one of your examples I could post a thousand examples where a pilot flew a perfectly sound plane into the ground, or wasn't paying attention, or made some other mistake. Or where there was a mechanical failure, or a weather condition. If you fly as a passenger on an airliner, odds are you'll get killed thousands of times due to other causes before you die from a bird strike, if in fact you ever die from that cause. I really don't have much more to add, if my point's not clear by now I guess it never will be.

 

Never said that it can't happen, just said it's fairly unlikely based on 50 years of flying. If it were to happen tomorrow, and 147 people got killed ... it would still be statisticly insignificant as far as I was concerned. That would raise the death toll to what, .0000001% of people who have flown commercially? That makes it about, oh, 1000 times safer than driving your own car.

As Frank mentioned, that would put the risk somewhere in the falling-on-a-lawn-dart zone, which I'm very comfortable with.

- Roach