Middleweights - When does old technology start to limit a rider?

The scenario:

Harry says Dick can easily pick up 2 seconds a lap at a certain track just by updating his machine.

Dick rides a basically stock MW bike that is 10+ years old however he holds his own in the Novice ranks. If Dick were to update his equipment, that 2 seconds would land him square in the middle of the Expert field however Dick has it in his mind that he has not seen the full potential of both his rider skillset as well as the ceiling of the performance of his currently outdated machine.

Harry insists that it will be beneficial for Dick to get on a newer machine that will offer better handling and much more power in order for Dick to realize what he has been missing.

The question is, does Dick stick to his guns and continue to squeeze everything he can out of his current machine as he continues to hone his skillset, althewhile possibly limiting his true potential, or does he admit defeat and take Harry's advice?


Harry or Dick?

 

i don't like dick

 

If they can afford it, get the newer bike. If not, keep having fun on the old bike... Pretty simple.

 

It's bothersome seeing those words under your avatar.

 

don't worry, she does.

 

He will be better and faster on a new machine by some, but probably not two seconds. Tires will grip the same and the throttle application will be the same. I've seen a few people do better on older bikes.
End result is he can stick with whatever he wants. If he wants to learn more, no reason to change. If he wants to go faster, get a faster bike.

 

Mmmm... in April 2008 I raced Vegas and turned a best lap of 1:25.8 on a clapped-out '03 600RR. In June 2008, I raced Vegas again on a brand-new '08 R6 and did a best lap of 1:22.8.

At some point, it does start to be the machine. Sure, you might not be pushing its limits like the world-level guys were during your machine's heyday... but do you expect to, ever? Getting closer and closer to machinery limits is an exercise in diminishing returns, so if you can raise your machinery's limits.. you'll speed up your progress as a rider.

 

Dick is a reasonably quick learner so in part I tend to agree with Harry on how much time he will pick up. That said, I'd agree that 2 seconds is a fair estimation once a few races are completed and the rider has time to get dialed as well as acclimate himself it. An instant 2 seconds? Doubtful.

The conversation between the two caused me to post this thread because I tend to agree with certain points on both sides and started to get curious.

We're talking about Dick, not me but I do hear what you're saying.

 

This reminds me of last year (and this actually) when people came to me and asked "why are you on THOSE tires (michelin last, Pirelli this), you DO know that Dunlops are like 2 seconds faster right?". When the person saying it is a solid 5-6 seconds slower than me. Makes no sense really.

Id say Dick may pick up time, but Id bet it is more due to the confidence he gains from the newer bike, more than any real benefit the bike provides physically. Not to discredit confidence... it means a lot... but he could have gained that time without the bike is the point. But if he can afford the new bike, it doesnt matter where the time comes from if he goes faster really.

 

She's just hanging out in the kitchen and he is on here talking to us about dick. hmmm....

 

That's messed up, man.

 

If I didn't know better, I'd swear this thread was about me. Guess I should get a better bike.

 

2 seconds was the margin I'd be ok with my buddy on a newer bike being faster than me. Not because I ever rode his bike and actually picked up those two seconds but because he was typically two seconds a lap faster than me everywhere and I liked to rationalize that we were the same speed.

 

Todd Clark and many others still go damn fast on bikes that are 2-4 generations old.

Good suspension, good tires, good setup etc goes a long way. There isnt much difference in HP from the bikes of 7-10 years ago. What difference there is, can be negated with mods/builds/tuning etc. You can get modern suspension for non-modern bikes and obviously the same tires are available to everybody.

If you want to buy a new bike, go for it. I am in no position to tell somebody not to buy bikes. But don't do so under the assumption that you will immediately be 2 seconds faster. I like to buy new bikes because it is fun and i like riding different stuff. If you want a new bike, go for it. But don't assume you will immediately jump to the front of the pack. Anytime you go to a new/different bike, there will be a learning curve.

 

since most of the responses have been limited to those that probably fall close to the expert category.

how does the older vs newer compare for those that would be new to racing, 'A' level track day guys, or an equivalent level ?

 

A well set up older bike will beat a mediocre new bike. The key is getting a bike the rider is comfortable with and suits the riders style. A 03 CBR is pretty old, you could probably spend a little and upgrade to a 06-08 bike and see a marked improvement for little cost.But the rider has to ask himself what is holding him back and address those issue's first. JMO

 

I think it really depends on the specific model. There is a enormous gap between the 05 and 06 GSXR 600/750s for instance. I don't know how you could move up from say an 03 something to a 06+ something-else and not go faster. Between an 08 and a 12... maybe not so much, even though there is still two generations between them.

If the bike was made after 06, getting a newer one won't help, IMHO. Before 06, consider it, with the glaring exception of the GSXR 1000.

 

^^this

 

When I get my ass back out on track, I will still be pimping my 04 R6(till I splurge on an 08 R1). I think the new R6's are certainly better than my bike, but I barely fit on mine, let alone the new ones, so that wouldn't be an option anyways. Besides, I want to go out and beat up on people on my almost 10 year old bike.

 

Well, I have a 2001 R1, and my best time at tally is about a 1:04.XX.. not super fast, but then at the time I was riding about 3-5 times a year. If I had a newer R1 I bet I could go faster, but since I don't race, my goals are a bit different.

used DOT race tires... I have changed the springs as I am about 240LBS, but otherwise stock suspension.


I would put the money in better suspension, and mod my bike before I spend 5K plus on a newer bike.