simplify the rules for 2003

It seems to me that the WERA vintage rule book is very simple.
With the exception of the Formula RD rules,with almost all of the classes defined with only 1 or 2 paragraphs of rules that encompass all of the bikes in the class and their avaible trim.
So why is it we need a page and a half of rules for one class that has 3 different models of the same bike?
In the intrest of keeping cost down and simplifing the rules and making more racers intereted in racing rds. I propose that we simplify the the Formula RD rules in 1 of 2 different ways.

Option 1: STOCK RD- "NO MODIFICATIONS"at all. that means from ignition to pipes and anything in between. It cant be any simpler than stock everything, everyone starts from scratch!!

Or to make it even more simple so no has to change anything they already have or like or would like to try, make Formula RD simple by just a few basic rules.

Option 2: Formula rd- if it has a RD motor, RD frame, RD wheels and stock reed cages . IT'S A FORMULA RD

All right guys and gals (not just rd guys either) lets here it! THE FAST GUYS WIN ANYWAY!!!!
matt

 

Dude I am with you on dat. The F-RD rules are a lawyer's wet dream - they can be molded anyway seemed fit. Look at the news page on the vintage home page - there are 3 total rule clarification - 2 which are for F-RD and 1 rule change for F-RD. Dose not seem to have any problems in V1-V7 and GP classes. O well.. just some oberservations I have seen..

 

F-RD Rules

F-RD was intended to be a Spec class, based on Superstock rules. F-RD was formed in the interest of low cost roadracing competition. RTFRB, specifically page 53, 1st paragraph under Formula RD. Certain modifications were allowed. Those modifications are similar to those allowed under Superstock (formerly Production) rules. Superstock racers are permitted to use aftermarket fairings, tires, brake pads, shocks, chain, steel braided brake lines, slotted cam sprockets, aftermarket black boxes, exhaust system, etc. Certain F-RD rules were made to allow upgrades in certain areas regarding reliability or safety.

WERA Vintage, as a whole, is based on Superbike rules. If you want to race a Superbike-spec RD, there is F 2-Stroke and F-500.

Nothing prohibits an F-RD spec bike from competing in F 2-Stroke or F-500. Nothing prohibits a Superbike-spec RD from competing in Clubman.

There's no bitch here. You wanna build a killer RD, go ahead. It just isn't legal for F-RD.

Yep, the fast guys win anyway. Ask Mark Morrow, 2001 F-RD champ. He did OK in F 2-Stroke and F-500 on his F-RD spec machine as well.

 

Its simple....

2 Strokes Suck...

Just kidding,

Looking at the rules in F-RD, I find it odd that if its a 2 stroke superstock class for RD's that porting of any kind is allowed, carb boring? PVL's? aftermarket pistons?

Superstock based? I think not...

This is cost containment?

As far as the fast guys winning anyway, you got that right.

 

A lot of the rules are practical in nature, rather than following the simpler ideals of pure superstock. For example, the cyls are over 20 years old, and finding used ones that have never seen a porting tool can be difficult. A lot of the junkyard spares available now were modified 20 years ago by clueless would-be tuners.

 

Option One: FRD becomes the Cheaters class. With no easy way to enforce the rules. For goodness sake, the bikes are over 20 years old. How many "stock" bikes are out there to race?

Option Two: then the class becomes the spend-till-you-drop class. That's not very attractive either. It was meant to be an entry level class.

There are cheaters participating in the class. They get protested, and DQ'd, just like any other class. To avoid this situation, RTFRB and follow the guidelines! If you don't like it, buy an EX500 and try making it competitive in its classes.


On a side note, Grant, you've had my rear sets for something like six months now, and I really would like them back. If you are not going to buy them, please make an effort to return them to me as soon as possible. Thanks.

 

True

How often do you see protests in vintage?

Just wondering, I noticed a 550 mono shock running in V4 at nelson & again noticed the same bike listed in the VIR results. Does this go on all the time?

Before you ask, I would not protest anyone, ever, after a race I was involved in no matter how bad someone cheated. Right or wrong, Thats just not me. It just seems odd that something as easy to see as mono shock in a twin shock only class has slid by without anyone bringing it up. Had I been the guy to tech the bike sat morning I would have pointed it out but the work load in tech is pretty high on sat morning & it slid by whoever checked it.

 

Matt

What happened to you showing up at Nelson?

per your e-mail

I guess you
A. Wadded it
B. It Done blowed up

I'm crushed, there I was waiting for you to hand me my ass & you stood me up

 

CHEETERS

RICK YOU MAKING THE PIONT I WANTED TO HERE.
when people that protest others and still have the gaul to cheet themselves. by interperating the rules to suit their needs its ok!they just get a "RULE CLAIRIFACTION" ie "vintage news".
i think that both of the options i offered are in the intrest of cost.
to elaborate option 1 a stock rd will only go so fast@39hp so if someone shows signficant top speed over other bikes it certaintlly not stock. i think that its real easy to find stock rds cheap. not that i want a stock class.
option 2:an rd frame(stock) is only so good and only handle so much.and rd wheels can only carry so big a tire, and a stock reed cage can only flow so much air/fuel no matter how big a carb or how much porting is done or what pistons are used. anyone out there can make 55-60hp rd their not a secret so what diferance does it make to impose rules that dont work anyway.
I WONT BE LABLED A CHEETER EITHER WAY . i dont need to cheet, although i might just race at the gnf just to spend a 100 dollars because i know who and why!!!!!!!

 

yamaha rick,
who's cheating? if you really know then spill it. when was the last
time you raced a wera vintage event to see this?
spend till you drop? ask chris spargo how much his motor pipe combo cost him. not that much.
also i find it odd that YOU would flame someone on the bbs for taking their time to return something.
rule debates can be a good thing.
Rain D. i dont believe that morrow ever raced a f-rd bike in form two-stroke. one reason is the two race restriction per bike in wera vintage that mark and i both would like to see changed. this rule cost us some participation and money.
rd rules could be a little more open without being cost prohibitive.
i raced against a 650 honda motard at road last time is that legal? alot of fun though. clubman bikes are entering V5 without much oversight.
you sound a little bitchy, need another beer?

 

What's wrong with a rule clarification? I asked for one myself. It was made, and published in Vintage News. I never heard of any disagreements or protests over the policy change.

One rider weighs 140 pounds soaking wet. Another checks in at 265. Yet the bikes are supposed to be the same speed? How bout changes in final gearing ... not gonna allowed that either? Are we gonna have weigh in's too?

It is NOT easy to find twenty year old STOCK RD's ... period! You are living in your own Private Idaho; sorry mate.

Mark Morrow can handilly beat me on a bike that is 20-25 HP down on power relative to my steed. Yet since he wins, will you label him a cheater too, for being such a great rider? I don't think so.

Bottom Line: if you don't want to be labeled a cheater, RTFRB and be careful what you do or have done to your bike. Very simple!

If you want to run a very stockish, 39HP RD, then go to AHRMA, as they have a class for beginner racers that cater to that sort of thing. If you want to build one, go to F500 and have fun there.

I don't mean to rag on you so much here ... please just understand that the rules have worked well for quite some time, and there's no reason (IMHO) to make a change. If you are so hung up on change, then perhaps you should start working on a presentation to the board outlining your desires. Whinning on the BBS doesn't get much done ... trust me, I do plenty of it myself!

 

No beer; I'm just not allowed to drink Pepsi this late at night.

Over the past few years, I have heard of protests being made, and the riders being DQ'd for not following the letter of the law. It's a simple process ... you cheat, you get caught, you pay the price.

When my FRD was being constructed this time last year, I worked hard to make ABSOLUTELY SURE that there was NOTHING done to my bike to violate the class rules as published. If I can do this, surely all others can too.

Another point I wanted to make with regard to running "stockish" RD's is that in stock form, the bikes are not reliable (nor safe) for racing situations. Many of the so called "performance enhancements" actually make the bike a much safer one to ride.

Rules discussions are one thing; whinning is another. Besides, just because I have a different point of view doesn't mean that either one of us is either wrong or right ... we just have different prospectives.

As far as the complaints that others are knowingly cheating, well, that's your fault for not protesting them. If the protests are that obvious, then putting up 25 dollars for a protest (which you get back if you win) is nothing. And oh, BTW ... tech inspection is not there to verify if a bike is legal; just if it is prepped in a manner to pass inspection.

 

Was just asking how often protests really happen (in vintage) in other regions & tracks that I have not been to.

Nobodys at fault for protesting or not protesting for that matter. I had no reason to. Said bike finished well behind me & like I said, having been in the race, call it my twisted sense of conflict of interest & my feeling that races are won on the track, not off

I know that Tech inspection is for bike prep, having teched for a while, I've made a habit of always doing a quick scan of the entire entry & If I happen to catch a improper one I point it out & inform them they will have to clear it up. It takes no extra time.

 

Wow! you guys were busy today!(This place was dead over the weekend) I definitely have some comments.
I think Matt's original point is a good one. The rules have gotten way to cumbersome. IMHO, the rules for the class went into the shitter way back when they decided to allow carb boring. Then allowing reshaping of the combustion chambers really sealed it. It became a motor builders class. The "stock rd" option is a pipe dream. Who wants for everyone to have to drop their existing programs and start from scratch? Not that f-rd grids have been totally huge to begin w/. Sure would be cool if it had started, and stayed, like that . I raced a stock 350 a few times and it was a blast.
Again, I agree w/ Matt that theres only so much you can do through stock carbs and reeds.(NASCAR restricter plates) Sure, this makes it even a smidge more of a motor builders class, but it already is a motor builders class and would certainly eliminate all of the pesky protests.
Scott- RD was refering to when I cold siezed the rz in morning practice at Summit. I ran the rd in all four classes, didn't win any of them,(Stan twice, Tommy D and Kenneth George did) but finished on the box in all of them. Ended up losing the points for the f-2sroke and v5 races. No hard feelings, but it was frustrating. I was bumping up 3 times! Lost the mid Atl championships in f-2strk and v5 as a result. Another rule I'd love to see change.
Our 350 that won the championships was very much in the "spirit of the rules" We certainly spent some r+d time on it, but Gary was always adamant on keeping the bike at budget limited performance levels. Only 2 sets of pistons per season. (I did break down and splurge for a 3rd set last year for the gnf cuz Stan and Rich had put the fear of god into me!) It was fast, but nowhere near the performance of the bikes that were taking full advantage of the rulebook. Not cheating, I'm not on any kind of a crusade, but people that were doing everything thats allowed in the rules. Really, the rules allow WAY too much for a class that started out as superstock. None of that stuff would fly in AMA or FIM superstock.
I think a simplification of the class is needed. It has basically been ok till now, but I think it's sliding down hill w/ each new change. Keep things positive, anyone have any other proposals that could eliminate such lengthy rules? The VRC will definitely be going over this. I'd love to see a solution that makes everyone happy.

 

This has been another interesting topic and I appreciate all the views expressed - even though each of us has our own agenda and is using the BBS to push that agenda.

When Brian Capps first proposed this class it was to be a simple and inexpensive place to race. However, everything got in the way of that and his attempt to limit performance and dollars spent has pretty much gone by the wayside. I'm probably one of the few people that could field a completely stock RD; as several have said, the stock ones just aren't out there anymore and I belive you would spend more money putting together a completely stock bike than you would building one to today's rules. We have all those rules because people always push the envelope and don't forget, the original idea was to keep it simple.

Someone will interpret porting as boring new passages in the cylinder. Someone with CNC access will completely reshape the combustion chamber ala the TZ250G. Someone with a lot of money to spend will have Race Tech, or someone else, completely rebuild and revalve their forks. In racing, people will always search for the slightest advantage even though a better rider will still beat them. You can't rely on people to stick to the rules without some form of oversight. I am probably one of the only people racing Formula RD that rode RDs in ERA and WERA in D Production. There were no mods, other than tires, rearsets, shocks, gearing, jetting, bars and air filter changes permitted then and lots of people cheated. There were protests then and that was the only thing that kept people "kinda" legal.

Before I became a member of the Rules Committee I urged that the the organization impound bikes and inspect them for legality. As everyone on this thread knows, you can have the cylinder head off an RD in about five minutes and the carb and reed valve assembly off in another five. This would catch almost any violation of the rules, but the organization won't do this. They say it is too time consuming but I just think they don't want to be bothered. So, we rely on protests. They happen. People get caught or are exonerated. People request clarifications of the rules. That's all part of the process. If you want to race Formula RD you put up with it. If you don't like the rules, race something else. For the most part I think most competitors toe the mark and are having fun.

You only have to look at riders like Mark, Josh, Stan, and Chris Stevenson, to name a few, who have ridden pretty "plain vanilla" RDs and have done well to see that the rider makes a lot of the difference. (Stan has now put a lot of development into his bikes and Mark has moved on, but they started on fairly slow machines; I know, I passed them on the straights only to have them pass me back in the twisty bits.) I, for one, would like to see it stay that way. If you feel differently, express yourself here and to the rules committee.

Lyn Garland
Formula RD has been a fun class this year. More of us out th

 

Simpler RD rules

I guess I will weigh in on this subject,, I joined WERA a little over 2 years ago having been off the roadracing track for some 21 years. I had owned and ridden both TZ’s and RD’s and raced both in the end of the 70’s. I attended a race at Talladega about 3 years ago and met many of the current RD – F500 regulars.

The first thing I did WAS READ THE RULES! The Rd section is what a page + a paragraph?

It is a virtual blueprint to build a bike. It seems to only have become an issue to those that wish to “expand” the rules. It was very clear to me what the intent of the class is and what is legal and what is not, any place I had a question clarification was only a call or an E-mail away from any number of sources.

As issues have been pointed out to the riders the reply was “I did not know” (the reply should more accurately have been “I did not read”) It is YOUR BIKE you are responsible for making sure it is Legal. The rules virtually make this an open class not intended for “secret tuning / hp magic” if your not sure about something ASK, how hard is that? This is a riders class, the best place hone your riding abilities on a classic piece of 2-stroke motorcycle racing history!

The rules are intended to create fast reliable fun racing and it has been that for me. It has been a great year I only wish that all the bikes out there this year finished every race. and I am excited by the prospect of next year as it seems many people are considering F-RD bikes.

Look at the previous years champions (Mark Morrow and Stan Lippert), they all rode legal bikes tuned well, they won convincingly on their talent, they have moved on to dominate other classes. If you open up this class, the first time it is won on a bike that is F-500 spec, the perception for new riders will be “I have to build a bike like that to be competitive”. All of the rules are intended to provide the ability to field a reasonable cost SAFE fast reliable bike, with the exceptions being in the interest of parts availability.

The current rules structure for F-RD is designed to minimize compliance issues. Every attempt is made to allow parts to be trued up if needed (cylinder decking) and setup properly. Porting is allowed because it eliminates this as an area of protest, it is not that expensive and people win with little or no porting. Even if a “stock” RD class was created it would be likely that the same type of porting would be allowed as it eliminates a hidden area of protest.

Compliance becomes a big issue, if any of you ever raced a “stock” motored racing cart you will find out just how far rules can go, we are no where near the extreme that exists in some racing.

For those that are complaining, please ask a tangible question about a rules issue? Are they to technically written? Is there a rule that is confusing?

It seems to me the problem is selective reading as well as failure to read the rules. Most all of the clarifications have resulted from the mentality of “if it is not specifically forbidden then I can co it” this is not what this class is about, if you take the rules and the opening paragraph it leaves no doubt about what can and cannot be done!

Virtually all of the “growth in the rules” has come as a result of people failing to read what is already there!

To me the problem arises when people think there is a loophole. Rather than asking first and seeking/gaining approval the mentality is, "I’ll do it and see if I can get away with it", this goes directly and deliberately against the stated purpose of this class! You deserve to get protested and DQ’d

If some spent half as much time following the “All modifications must be performed in a workmanlike manner and should keep within the spirit of the class”, portion of the rules rather than the “build a fire breather” effort there would be more bikes at the finish of every race.

If you use the opening paragraph of the rules as a guide then common sense would eliminate many of the clarifications. Based on this paragraph alone it should be clear that this is not a class to leverage the rules. There are classes that are specifically allow and promote that, F-500 is the “go for it” class for an RD based bike, read all the threads about expanding that class and the level of effort to make it competitive.

“FORMULA RD is a "spec" class formed in the interest of low cost roadracing competition. Eligible machines include ALL air-cooled Yamaha RD350's and RD400's sold in North America from 1973-1979. Later model RD/LC's, RZ's and R5's are prohibited. Any parts ever sold as OEM equipment on a 1973-1979 RD250,350 or 400 are legal for use on any year or model RD, updating and backdating are permitted. All modifications must be performed in a workmanlike manner and should keep within the spirit of the class. The most important thing to remember is that the rules have been written in the interest of increased longevity and decreased operating expenses. NOTE: The term stock means as sold by the manufacturer with absolutely no alterations. No metal removed, no metal or other substance added unless otherwise noted. “

 

As a F-RD "outsider" I would have to say that the rulebook is pretty clear about the intent of the class. The people who question the clarity of the rules are the ones trying to find a loophole for a hp advantage. Sorry, but I think the absurdly extensive F-RD rules seem to be as a result of individuals who try too hard to stretch the envelope concerning what is/isn't allowed. Not only do these individuals miss the point of the class but they also are partially responsible for making the rules more and more of, as Grant put it, a lawyers wet dream which is something we don't need (sorry Dave, I seem to be picking on you again ).

Somewhere else in this thread someone mentioned the protest issue. Now I don't know of many people who like protests but they exist for a good reason. To discourage the "bending" or "creative interpretation" of rules whether intentional or not. If someone is protested and the bike in question was deemed illegal, I would view it as an oversight or misunderstanding of the rules by the guilty person. However if that person then gets angry about the protest I would be inclined to believe that they were intentionally cheating and got caught.

I've heard many people make comments about the most recent protest, many of which were understandable but I think many people fail to see the bottom line. The individual who filed the protest did so because he suspected a machine wasn't legal for a particular class not for the sake of harassing another racer. He went through the proper procedures outlined by our organization to see if his assumption was correct. As a result of the protest, the machine in question was deemed illegal. So what exactly did the person filing the protest do wrong? He isn't the type of person who protests everyone faster than him. If he had turned the other cheek would that have made him a better person or improved the quality of competition in the class? His action wasn't selfish, it benefitted the majority of the racers in that class.

Many times I've heard things like "this is only club level racing, who cares if someone cheats?", "if they need the win that badly fine, let them cheat if it's that important to them" "protests don't belong in amateur racing, we're just here to have fun". Sorry but I think those statements are a load of crap. Yes we race to have fun but we're also in it for the competition and in such an arena rules are needed to help even out the field and provide us with guidelines to determine what is or isn't acceptable. These rules are important and should be respected and upheld by everyone for the benefit of everyone. In short, protests only hurt guilty individuals.

BTW - not pointing out a rules infraction, just as turning the other cheek while someone is being mugged, is nothing to be proud of.

 

I'm not saying it is.

After the racing was over for the day I suggested to the regional director that maybe someone should point out to said rider that the bike was not within the rules before he finds out the hard way.

Maybe the guy has never read the rulebook, I don't know, yes I know he should have. But I'd hate for the guy to go through the entire year with none of the powers that be informing him of the rule & then him finding out at the biggest race of the year.

Why didn't I ?

At this point, as little as I've raced wera vintage, I didn't feel it was my place being an outsider compared to those who chase points week in week out.

 

jens i disagree!

 

That never stopped you before!!!