does anyone or would anyone race with dual density soft armor? or hard plastic only? my joe rocket two peice had hard armor but my new suit has dual density soft armor. whats the verdict?
i figured both had pros and cons. seems to me the dual density foam would help more in an impact. at any hard signifigant impact...foam or plastic...the outcome wont be good either way.
you need both. Soft armor (high density foam) absorbs the impact and the hard protection (ce armor) keeps the impact from going through the padding into your body. The hard armor also provides some stress relief to keep you from snapping bones. Lots of high quality padding over CE armor is the best option.
my NJK suit is soft armor only. i have only had one soil sampling test so far, nothing violent to report tho.
both have their unique benefits. the hard will spread the impact zone to a larger area. the foam allows more dwell time before the initial shock reachs breakable components ( like bones) . suits are mainly for protection from abrasion . you hit something really solid like a wall they are going to help some but you like hurt for sure. I use both in my personal suit. I guess I really like a medium/ firm thick foam with some really heavy laminated leather on the impact zones. if you ahve the room in the suit you can always install what you want. as always the best to all. barnacle bill
awesome guys thanks for the responses. i switched the armor out of the knees and elbows with the hard armor from my joe rocket suit, made me feel a little better. but the shoulder armor wouldnt fit so i left the soft on the shoulders. the suit is custom no name brand. but yea like i said earlier bill, i beleive that if your hitting any stationary object at any speed, its gonna suck either way.:wow:
Here's the thing, hard or soft, the primary purpose of "armor" is to absorb impact energy in order to reduce forces on the body. Neither the concept of hard or soft and their relative definitions get us any kind of reasonable answer as to how effective a specific pad or other object will be at providing any tangible differences in performance. The only reliable method of this is the CE label and information. The CE tests for motorcyclist impact protectors define a level of impact energy and force transmission requirements for any piece of material made for this purpose within a suit, jacket, pants, or boots. In the case of the Joe Rocket armor, none of it is tested to the CE requirements, maybe that's a regional marketing issue, maybe not, but either way, stuff that has been tested and proven is widely available and the values of it are widely known, rather than these guesses that have to be made concerning the effectiveness of some products, whether you consider them hard, soft, cheap, flimsy, ugly, solid, fashionable or popular. It's too bad that the local custom manufacturers in the US are not pursuing the same means of setting themselves apart from the crowd with testing info like their counterparts in the UK have done, small custom suit makers like BKS, Hideout, Carrera, and Crowtree. Instead, they leave us guessing and don't appear all that interested or informed about reliable testing methods and procedures(but they've got the scars to prove their hit and miss guesswork has paid-off.) Some of the highest performing impact protectors out there are also the the thinnest, most flexible pieces you will find, and most of the hard stuff isn't CE approved. Coincidence? Doubtful. If it were as easy as adding a cheap plastic shell to those higher-performing foams, don't ya think they would have done that already. Hard plastic is not exactly cutting-edge technology, or expensive to produce. Some pieces have been tested to the Cambridge Institute(University test lab in England) standard for impact protection, which uses more impact energy than the current CE requirements, namely some of the T-pro Body Armour protectors. I haven't found any other pieces that are tested to this standard, but black Astrosorb which in various thicknesses meets these higher levels can be found is also used by First Gear in their Hiprotec products. www.tprobodyarmour.co.uk Here's some more info on the CE standards and proper impact protectors: Similar to Snell and DOT standards for helmets, CE standards for motorcyclist's protective clothing establish a unified testing procedure for products sold in Europe as motorcylcist PPE(Personal Protective Equipment). Under the CE directives, all products have to be tested and approved by an independent, government approved test house. CE testing in Europe is mandatory for impact protectors, however, it is also required for any motorcyclist clothing claiming or marketing protective qualities. In other words, if a company claims their product is built for protective purposes, it must be backed-up with the independent testing proof of the CE standards. For example, manufacturers can market armor as "impact protectors" only if the pieces meet the requirements or simply "padding" if it is not intended to provide a safety advantage. There are CE standards that cover each part of the body and each category of protective qualities associated with motorcyclist clothing. These include abrasion resistance, tear strength, impact protection, and seam strength. There are standards covering motorcyclist's suits, jackets, pants, and impact protectors("armor"), as well as gloves and footwear. There are 2 standards that cover motorcyclist impact protectors. One is used for limb/joint pieces and the another for back protectors. Each provides various levels of performance based on energy absorption/force transmission. The CE LIMB/JOINT PROTECTOR standard is labeled EN1621-1. It allows joint/limb armor to transmit no more than 35kN of force at an impact energy of 50 Joules. The Cambridge Standard goes above and beyond the basic CE standard by adding two additonal impact levels at 75 Joules and 100 joules. Basic CE 1621-1 = 35kN@50Joules High-Performance Cambridge = 75 Joules Extreme Performance Cambridge = 100Joules Just like brakes on a bike, for each 10mph increase in speed you may need almost double the amount of braking power, or in the case of impact protectors, more energy absorption capacity, so the performance measured at higher levels of impact energy is key, as long as the amount of force tranfered to the body is within the acceptable level of 35kN which is based on medical data that shows the point at which fractures in limbs and joints typically occur. The CE BACK PROTECTOR standard is labeled EN1621-2. The test is performed with a 5kg "kerbstone" dropped from one meter to create the test impact energy of 50 Joules. The standard contains two levels of force transmission performance, using the same impact energy. 18kN@50J passes LEVEL 1 compliance. 9kN@50J passes LEVEL 2 or "high performance" compliance. The levels for back protection is a compromise of sorts, as the bones of the spine and rib cage can be fractured at much lower levels of force, at anything over 4kN. There is a standard for horse rider's torso protectors that requires this level of transmission, but the impact energy at which they are tested is slightly lower. Some motorcyclist back protectors may meet those requirements, but BKS is the only gear manufacturer to openly advertise the fact that theirs does meet the BETA 2000(same as the CE standard for horse riders) requirements. The European motorcyclist clothing industry balked at having to meet these requirments in the implementation of the more recently devised motorcyclist standard, so the motorcyclist protectors are tested at the 50Joule level instead, at which not even the highest-performing products can meet the medically recommended guidelines for preventing minimal serious injuries. The levels required for high-performance are even set at twice the amount of force that should ultiomately be allowable, but if there was ever a case for a better than nothing choice, this is it. Just don't land on your back at speed that will create a 50 Joule impact, and don't expect any unproven or phony-labeled alternatives to be any better either, they probably won't even meet the limb armor requirments. The fact that CE approved armor is tested and proven is the most important point. No other forms of so-called "armor" make claims of protection and/or provide credible evidence of performance. If a company is not willing to show performance results, we shouldn't be buying their products when other, actual certified products exist. The CE standards for impact protectors do not specify any type of construction or materials, it's strictly bsed performance and size. There are many construction types and materials used for CE approved impact protectors including Knox's plastic honeycomb(single-use) pieces, rubber foam pieces, EPS(single-use styrofoam, like a helmet liner) pieces, and Rukka's air-filled protectors. Other types of materials that are usually NOT CE approved are viscoelastic ("temperfoam" or memory foam) pads, dual-density plastic foams, EVA foams, and various hard plastic pieces and sandwiched-plastics. The term "GP" is often used to describe a hard-plastic over foam design. It does not imply any real value or any exact specification of performance. It's an inxepensive and durable construction, which is why many contact sports use similar pads, but it doesn't appear to be the best option for impact absorption. Many companies make hard(er)-shelled protectors of some sort. Some of them may be CE certified, but the plastic-over-foam design doesn't usually perform as well in impact tests as some of the high-tech foams in use. Alpinestars, Dainese, and Erbo all sell hard(er)-shelled protectors that meet the basic CE levels. In the case of Alpinestars they call them "GP" protectors. Soft or hard doesn't differentiate performance levels. However, if you look at the construction of most CE approved armor you will find that the highest performing products are SOFT foams(Astrene/Astrosorb 8mm). At less than a centimeter thick, they may even seem flimsy. but these pieces fall in to the extreme performance category according to the Cambridge Institute requirements for energy absorption. Some hard armor may protect against penetration or provide slightly better abrasion resistance than other forms, but penetration injuries are rare and can also be dealt with by soft outer layer materials. A hard object underneath an outer layer may also damage that outer layer in an impact or slide by reducing the surface area and increasing the pressure at contact points. Flexibility of softer components should also equate to greater comfort and better fit. Here's some additional sources of info on proper impact protectors and CE testing: http://www.bmf.co.uk/briefing/BMF-Briefing-PPE.html http://www.planet-knox.com/Knox/index.asp http://www.bksleather.co.uk/techno.htm http://www.erbo.de/en/etouring/index.html www.ixion.org.uk/Leather2.html http://www.motorcycle.com/mo/mcblip/prd-tpro.txt www.carreracanada.com http://www.crowtreeleathers.co.uk/ Here's a comparison test of some well-known leathers performed by RIDE magaizine in the UK, it's basically a replication of the CE requirements for whole suits. Make note of the suits that were equipped with hard plastic armor vs the top 3 that were all equipped with T-pro protectors: http://www.southbayriders.com/forums/uploads/pic102319.pdf
I just broke my left scapula at Jennings during the endurance race. I was wearing my Helimot suit which is all soft armor. I had the suit custom made and it has armor everywhere. I'd only been down in it once before a couple of years ago at a slower speed, shorter fall, and it worked well. This time I don't know if different armor would have been better. I had a bruise on my left shoulder that was the exact pattern of the soft armor! It was pretty deep and just started to fade this week. I'm sure the armor took some of the impact, but enough was transfered to break a bone that my doctors have said they rarely see without other injuries i.e. collor bone, ribs. I also landed on my head hard enough to bruise my forehead through an Aria Quantum helmet. I would never wear anything else, and don't even want to think of my condition right now in some bargain lid. For those that are curious, turn five, hour 3 just before the rain started. Misjudged the SLOW corner speed of some traffic in front of me, tucked the front on the brake trying not to hit him.
T-pro makes the pieces that have been shown to absorb the most impact energy, and they are soft. http://www.tprobodyarmour.co.uk/x_treme.html http://www.tprobodyarmour.co.uk/technical.html Spreading the blow with some sort of non-deforming piece is thought by some to lessen the point-load of the force, but I think the reality of hard armor is that it limits the ability of a larger area of energy-managing material to disperse the energy of an impact. The size and shape of any armor pieces allows a relatively small surface area, and with the nature of impacts not being squared-up to the flat surfaces of the armor. This means that impact energy can be transferred along the edges or other small points on the piece, or directly transmitted at the highest point of contact underneath the outer surface with little benefit of the material underneath it at the point of contact. So ultimately, energy management at the highest impact energy one can hope to achieve is the key, as long as the piece minimizes the level of force needed to lessen the severity of bone breaks or prevent them all together is the key at those impact speeds. Johnson Leather www.johnsonleather.com/armor sells the T-pro armor in the US, they are said to be very knowledgable about the products as well from what I've heard. To add about the size and shape, the information on Erbo's website shows some ofhte differences required for CE approval but to summarize, there are 2 sizes allowed, the Type-A and Type-B. The Type-B size provides a larger coverage area. Many companys use just a type-a size for things like mesh jackets, where comfort is given more consideration than coverage area.
