Over center versus kissing mirror

I've been criticized for holding my upper over the tank as opposed to "kissing the mirror" and I can definitely feel the difference. I do not feel comfortable when my upper is over the tank.

How do some of the pro's ride with their upper body over the center, yet still get so much traction and speed? (this is a conversation going on at speedzilla, but no one has an answer, even though I'm sure no way is the "right" way.

Here's the "proper" way to do it.
I think in this image, all three riders have their butt off and their uppers over the side, not over the tank.



Here's Bayliss...you can see his upper is twisted to stay over the tank while his body hangs off (half cheek style)



Rossi, in this image, has his upper in the "proper" position..

 

The "proper" position is theoretically the best, but ultimately once you've learned your way around, whatever position works the best for you is what is best. Sounds like a cop-out answer, but in all reality that's the reason.

 

What tophyr said. Look for some pictures of Larry Pegram. He looks like the Bayliss picture above. I guess the Speedzilla folks can go tell Bayliss and Pegram "You're doing it wrong!"
Each style has advantages and disadvantages. "Kissing the mirror" gets your body CG over farther which means the bike doesn't have to lean as much, but it is more work to pull yourself back to the center of the bike. Makes a right-left combination turn harder (IMO).

You need to get more lean angle out of the bike if your body is not out there (see the dragging pegs in the Bayliss pic).

 

Thanks for the reply, guys. I'm pretty new at track days and the last track weekend, a CR told me he was scared behind me because my upper body was not "kissing the mirror" and he was afraid I was going to run out of tire. Speaking of, how do those guys like Bayliss, Pegram, etc not run out of tire at those extreme lean angles?

 

whatever rossi or spies does is fine with me =)

 

I think the leg dangle has far more effect than kissing the mirror.

 

Find a picture of Kevin Schwantz riding and compare it to Tony Elias.

Who's won more GP's? Kinda blows a hole in the theory of what's proper or not.

 

Also remember that Rossi is well over six feel and very "lanky" while Nori is pretty short, and shorter than Ben who is around 5'9". Some body parts are not proportioned in every aspect, While Troy is just used to riding the older style of racing just like Kevin Schwantz still rides like that older style. .

 

Spies is 5'11"
Rossi is 5'9" or 182 cm

:up:

 

the bayliss "sparks" are toe sliders, not pegs.

whether you hang off parallel to the bike or all crossed up doesn't have the effect on Cg as some of you think. the weight put on the bike is concentrated on the seat and pegs, doesn't matter where it is hanging out in the wind.

side-to-side transitions aren't any more difficult, either. instead of having to completely unweight your whole body to the other side, just move your ass.

more clearance can be attained "all crossed up" as you are able to slide your knee forward along the body panels instead of hangin' it out like a sail...being able to hold the bike firmly has its advantages.

i used to ride the bayliss way...it's self-taught, maybe instinctive or intuitive. then i learned the code way, spine parallel to the bike, and did very well with it.
protagonists of finer rider techniques would have you believe that you can only do them from the parallel position. i disagree.

whenever i get back to it, i'll be doing whatever feels right.
THAT is all that matters...assuming you have skills to begin with.

5'11"/175#

 

Excellent post, Freddie. Thank you for that.

 

learning the parallel style was not a cake walk...i had to unlearn everything i thought i knew. many "techniques" were thrown in on top of that parallel style that i would otherwise never had heard/knew/learned about. i don't think that means they can't be applied to the crossed up style.

one detractor from the crossed up position is your head...there's more of a twist in your neck to look thru corners. however, it is easier to look behind you if you should ever be so inclined.

 

I've only got one track weekend under my belt. On the first day (at Jennings), I was running 1.42's in the Novice class while having to end up sitting behind slower traffic. All the while, trying my hardest to work on body positioning. That was in early May. Since then, I've been in my garage on my bike, working on my upper body.

The CR's were worried about me because my bike was starting to lean pretty good by I was using the crossed up position. I'd rather use the parallel style rather than cross up, because it seems that is the style that works on modern bikes. We'll see what happens. I've got a track day coming up on June 19th and I'm paying for some 1 on 1 time, so I hope to have even more input.

 

DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT A TRACK RIDER

Mmm, thats not exactly correct. Even though the seat and pegs (and clip-ons, depending on how sloppy one is) are the points on the bike upon which most of the force from the rider's weight & inertia are focused....

... the distance from the 'fulcrum' or 'center' of the turn have a direct effect on the magnitude of force that the riders body exerts on the bike. This is why hanging-off helps in the first place... so moving more of your body's weight to the inside of the turn is going to have an effect.

Unless you have some strange body proportions (like ridiculously short T-rex arms with a huge ghetto booty), hanging off 'parallel' will move your center of gravity more than just sliding a cheek and leaving your chest planted (comparitively).

Unless i've misunderstood the original question, anyways

 

That is the way Keith Code explains it.

 

neither i nor code are physicists but...
when you are parallel you have the crack of your ass on the inside edge of the seat and your outside shoulder slightly inside the bike's centerline.
when you are crossed up you have your ass off the inside of the seat and your outside shoulder on the centerline.
the balance point between ass and shoulder lies somewhere along your spine...i'd bet that point on your spine was pretty much in the same place relative to the fulcrum regardless of styles but crossed up the weight is lower.

G8rDuc, you may find it slightly more difficult to ride various styles on your ducati than on other styles of bikes. this might help...
parallel style = inside elbow to inside knee. only half your ass off the seat.
crossed up = inside knee towards front axle. all your ass off the seat.

 

Thank you Freddie. I will definitely take that to the track.

 

good luck!
have fun.
drink lotsa water. :up:

 

Trust me, I will. Temps are creeping toward the high 90's for the next couple of weeks.

 

Jimmy! It Yuengling time!

Call me up. We'll go discuss the proper way to hang off a bar stool