Michelin EVOs...

Here are the answers to the questions I could pull out of the posts and some comments.
Gauges- there are lots of them out there some good some not so good. The trick as Stick said is repeatability. Greg drives me nuts with this little gauge he uses that is off but repeatable. I will say run this and he will say by my gauge or yours. Gauge types- Oil filed gauges were designed for high vibration. the glycerin dampens the vibrations so the gauge can be read. I have my riders dump it out then drill a small hole in the rubber stopper. If you have a sealed or liquid filled gauge you must continuously burp it so the pressure inside the housing is the same as outside the housing if it is not the gauge no matter how much it costs will read incorrectly.

Cold Pressure- Cold means ambient. The pressures are starting points and you must keep records no matter how you do it. If you want to set pressures off of the warmers you must get a base line. The 30 front 22 rear is a base line. You do not set your tires in the morning, cold or otherwise and not make adjustments during the day. Do it the same way every time and keep records. There are no magic pressures. Every rider is different. If you are going 10 seconds a lap slower than someone else their pressures will be too low for you. If you are only going 2 or 3 seconds a lap slower than the other guy they will probably be too low. Some riders tires come in from a session actually lower than when they went out as their tires are actually cooling from the temp the warmers had them at. Taking pressures after a practice session after you have gone back to the pits serves no purpose other than to confuse. You will see me on pit row waiting for riders to come in to check pressures off of the track. They do not slow down they run a hard lap and come to me so I can get a good reading. You need to figure out what your cold pressures are. What happens if you forget to plug in your warmers 45 minutes before the race? You have no baseline so you are SOL. What happens if you practice in the morning and your race is not for 2 or 3 hours and you forget to plug them back in soon enough? I hope you are not letting the tires sit there on the warmers all that time. Ever leave a pot of water on the stove; pretty soon there is no water. The chemicals in the rubber are the same. Records records records, O did I say keep records? You have no idea how many guys come to me and ask what they should do and when I ask then questions about there setup or pressure they have no idea, So and so does that for me. Great but dont you know what they are doing? You have to keep records so you know what to do under different circumstances.

Do not be a Lemming (lemmings really do not follow each other off of cliffs by the way) Find what works for you not what works for the other guy. Gather information from places but remember everyone and each bike is different.

 

And if David is there just ask him what pressures to use and any issues you have become his fault.

 

Terms like "work", "fast", "last", etc are all relative. If it works for you, that is great.

And what one might think is "complicated", another might think it is "attention to details". Again, everything is relative.

But to each their own. If it works for you. :up:

 

So the hot setup for making your tires last is not using tire warmers. Sounds legit.

 

418; tire warmers can help your tires last a little longer ( as long as you do not simmer the oils out of them) but not because of heat cycles. I am talking about MIchelins- I can not comment on any other brands. Tires grip a couple of different ways, you have a mechanical bond which is the rubber getting into all of the nooks and cranny's of the asphalt and they get sticky. If a tire is not sticky but is pliable enough to get into the nooks and crannys you are relying on only part of the grip potential until the tire gets warm enough to also stick. During the warm up you can abrade rubber faster off of the tire. In a trackday setting this is not much of a problem as you should be warming up your first lap or so. In a race setting it is hard on the tire when you are trying to be the first guy into turn one. Heat Cycles; Michelins heat cycle very well. This is easy to see; when you see guys taking there Michelins off they are pretty worn out. They do not look as pretty sometimes as other brands but they are worn out not torn up. Why are those other tires coming off so often? Pretty simple; they are not working anymore if they were why would you take them off before the y are worn out?

David Hirsch

 

not using warmers ? that is not from what he is saying.. pretty sure he's saying if you cook the tire all day on "high", that isn't ideal as you literally cook the good stuff out of a synthetic race tire. (and not sure on other brands, but this is the case for michelin, and i have a feeling is same for others..)

^ this

 

exactly.
Keep records, be consistent, don't do what others are doing just because you think it's correct. It may not be, and even if it is, it may not be right for you!

 

looking forward to it! :up:

 

No, that's what he said.

 

If you know how to use tire warmers, you use tire warmers.

 

Cold Pressure- Cold means ambient. The pressures are starting points and you must keep records no matter how you do it. If you want to set pressures off of the warmers you must get a base line. The 30 front 22 rear is a base line. You do not set your tires in the morning, cold or otherwise and not make adjustments during the day. Do it the same way every time and keep records. There are no magic pressures. Every rider is different. If you are going 10 seconds a lap slower than someone else their pressures will be too low for you. If you are only going 2 or 3 seconds a lap slower than the other guy they will probably be too low. Some riders tires come in from a session actually lower than when they went out as their tires are actually cooling from the temp the warmers had them at. Taking pressures after a practice session after you have gone back to the pits serves no purpose other than to confuse. You will see me on pit row waiting for riders to come in to check pressures off of the track. They do not slow down they run a hard lap and come to me so I can get a good reading. You need to figure out what your cold pressures are. What happens if you forget to plug in your warmers 45 minutes before the race? You have no baseline so you are SOL. What happens if you practice in the morning and your race is not for 2 or 3 hours and you forget to plug them back in soon enough? I hope you are not letting the tires sit there on the warmers all that time. Ever leave a pot of water on the stove; pretty soon there is no water. The chemicals in the rubber are the same. Records records records, O did I say keep records? You have no idea how many guys come to me and ask what they should do and when I ask then questions about there setup or pressure they have no idea, So and so does that for me. Great but dont you know what they are doing? You have to keep records so you know what to do under different circumstances. [/COLOR]

nowhere in this part of his post, does he say "don't use tire warmers".. he's explaining a lot of things, including problems that can occur if you leave warmers on too long, or forget to turn em on, but unless i can't see it... he's not saying "don't use tire warmers".

 

I believe 418 was referring to crashman's post, not Dave's.

 

oh crap.. you guys were talking about another post altogether.

for future reference 418. PLEASE quote a post when it's in a thread as heated as this one

edit:

yea, day late/dollar short... lol.. again..

 

It's not his fault you can't read, Melka.

 

I deserve an "A" for effort ..

 

If anyone puts a 180 on a 5 inch rim please send me a measurement of total width. I'd love to give these tires a try.

 

Ok so I'm used to dunlops and I just cook those things all day long with single temp warmers. Honestly it never has made a difference in feeling or longevity wether I turned them off during long stints (but still kept them on) or just cooked the tire all day. Maybe it's just me but I couldn't feel a grip difference.


I do see your point here about not cooking out the chemicals in the tire. I have a new to me r6 (I ended up with one after that whole thread and deciding on a 675r) and I think I'm going to try these Michelins out next month (maybe a little longer ankle depending) when I get back to racing.

What are you recommending to do with my warmers when I do use these?

45 minutes before the session turn them on and get the tire to XXX(180ish) check tire temp ( I use a laser temp gun) and set pressure. Then go out and practice/race, come back in and have someone take temp hot off track and then if I have a long break just let them cool off? Rinse and repeat? I just want to clarify.

 

what if Bibmen or Stick fedex's you a decent take off ? could mock it up yourself that way..

 

couple points of importance:
1- he is only talking about michelin tires. it's possible "cook all day" is what dunlop requires.. not saying it is! Paul, Tony, Steve B, etc. would be the guys to ask.
2- AM pace, no offense (as a general rule. cause you could be wicked fast, i just don't know your pace), is not top 3 expert pace. Faster pace, the more the tire degradation plays a part.

Never hesitate to contact your vendor, or myself on FB (and i can get you a phone #).
Yes, i put warmers on 35-45 min before i race or go on track for first time. If i have another race coming up in less than 45 min, they stay on high(rear)med(front). If it's gonna be more than an hour, we wrap the tire to let it cool slower, and then turn the warmer back on 45 min before lunch. On Sundays, i have 1 race before lunch, then 5 after, starting over an hour after the lunch break.
You could just turn them to "low" as well, especially if it was in a cooler climate. In FL it's fukn hot ALL the time, so "off" is like "low" on a warmer

 

What he said.