Keep Lightweight classes Lightweight

Brian Beimisderfer ran a 1200 Buell in LW Twins? Jeez, those things in Pro Thunder make 100+HP! They run against built Duc748's & the trickest SVs out there can't keep up. Oh, oh, it's superstock rules, you say. When was the last time WERA tore down a LW bike? They don't have the instruments on hand to measure anything anyway. There are going to be some teardowns coming. We like to keep it friendly, work things out, not file formal protests on club riders, but the time is at hand. What the hell is going on, WERA? Letting some slow people run oversize bikes in a lightweight class cause they suck in the proper class is stretching things already, but letting a fast guy run something like that? Mongo, are you French? Appeasement seems to run in their blood. C'mon, what the hell is the printed rulebook for? Are you going to let people run 750's in a 600 class 'cause they don't feel like they're fast? No. The printed rules are there for a reason. Quit F**CKING with the lightweight classes and treating them as unimportant.
P.S It was a "test", huh? Pre-arranged? No announcement? He was awarded points & contingincy? C'mon, was it a test, or should y'all apply with the FBI?


[This message has been edited by werajedi (edited 06-21-2001).]

 

I feel your pain Master Jedi, but it was an 'exhibition'. I took that to mean that Brian amassed no points, contingencies or trophies for his effort. Right, Mongo?

 

ohhhh mongo....you said the F word!!

(are you pissed off?)

i guess i shouldn't feel so bad with my post on the "mladdin will be fined...." thread,
afterall

one serious question.......

i heard of someone who entered the solo20 mdw and ran a hwy machine just for testing purposes and pulled off the track about 1/2 way or more...just wasn't planning to finish, obviously. what is the rule on that.

 

As a LW racer myself (and on vintage equipment at that) I, too, feel very strongly about the LW classes.

But in order for these classes to stick around, they have to adapt to the available machinery.

The manufacturer's have pretty much given up on bringing new readily LW bikes to the US, with the SV being the exception. Also, it doesn't look like they're gonna step up and bring us any new ones in the future.

With no modern FZR400's, no modern version of the Hawk, no performance chnanges to the venerable GS and EX, what are we going to do as these machines die and can't be replaced?

Sure, there are some other LW bikes to choose from (mostly greymarket, 2-stroke street bikes...Aprilia, NSR, etc.) But they're a little more pricey with less paddock support than the SV, GS, EX, etc.

At least in Clubamn we can make relatively inexpensive Frankenbikes to keep the spirit of the real LW racer alive.

I fear for the longevity of the "true" LW classes when the best example of a modern LW is a big honkin' 650!

 

I said it before, but I'll say it again: 565cc fours were not allowed in D Super because "that would make it a 90hp class."

Buell 1200s make 90hp, give or take a smidgen.

So, is it a 90hp class or not?

Not to mention the whole "letting an illegal bike run a race and collect points and contingencies" thing.

 

Ok I want a crack at this topic too since I am returning to racing and will be on a SV. I dont disagree with the fact of having a test run but that entry should not exist to points nor contingency due to the fact of it being run as a TEST. I believe the entry should pull off track early or best yet just not get awarded a finishing position. The only problem I see is the guys fighting for points and contingency and someone just testing come up with 1st place and all the benifits. Not right.

 

Uh, what else, other than HP, makes a 565 too fast? It's an FZR400 chassis so it handles no better than the 100 other FZRs running around in WERA. Is it drive off of the corners? If so, I'll bet money that an SS-spec SV drives off the corners as well as a 565cc four does.

As for saying 90hp was too much, I'll have to consult the FZR400 list archives before I continue. But my recollection of the conversations that took place on that forum, of which you were a part, is that the reason 565 machines were not going to be allowed boiled down to the fact that they'd be making in the ballpark of 90hp and therefore would no longer be "lightweight" bikes but more like "middleweight" bikes.

 

Mongo, the screwing up is in allowing newer, larger (more powerful) bikes into the entry level (or any) classes mid-season without any announcement or lead-in. People who read the rulebook, went out and spent their hard-earned money on what they decided to race are suddenly forced to run against something totally unforseen which has upped the ante.
For example, say that this season I'm riding for track & development time. Things go well, & over the winter I save up, work on my kit, & intend to make a serious run at the National Championship. The National Title, as we all know, is decided by who wins the National Final, regional points only determine the starting grid, but they do determine the starting grid. Wayne Rainey once said that he considered the start the most important part of the race because if you get a good start, your competitors have do do something special to beat you. Screw up the start, and YOU have to do something special. Next season, I'm doing well, I'm top-3, say, so I'll get a good grid at the Final. But wait. Mid-season a new bike is allowed into the class. The rider's been running the class, he's got points, but at the Final he's also got a just-legalized bike that has even 10 HP on the bikes that the others entered at the beginning of the season in good faith. Equally ridden, 10 HP at Road Atlanta or VIR is a walk-away on the straight in a LW class. What about handling? As Rich Oliver learned in FUSA, corner speed is hard to use when there's a straight-line-fast pig blocking the corner.
I guess my point is, making a bike legal for a class mid-season is unfair, even if it is "performance indexed", because the other competitors may not have that option-most LW class riders can't just go out & buy a different racebike mid-season, you're committed. I have no complaints about the class developing, someone wants to TRY OUT a bike in a class, great. It'll be legal next season, the other competitors will have the opportunity to voice their opinion and, regardless, have the opportunity to move to that bike NEXT SEASON. If the National Championship were determined on aggregate points AND a rider's previous points were ineligible if he's on a new-to-the-class machine, that'd be fine too. Someone wants to try to win the National from the third wave, go for it. But how does a rider plan a program effort if the rules get changed mid-season? Oh, and plan to bring the cam doctor to the SE races or take home a set of Ducati cams after they've been pulled out after one of the latest races on the schedule.

[This message has been edited by werajedi (edited 06-21-2001).]

 

Not that I disagree with your argument about mid-seson changes...but the example about rich Oliver....?

Not that he didn't have a hard time, but (and I may be wrong here), wasn't he very successful, and eventually 250GP Bikes were ruled out of the class as a result of his success. Wasn't he the FUSA champ on a TZ250? I can remember seeing him race at Willow, '96-97 maybe, and all the talk was about how well the bike performed at the high horsepower track.

 

FZR400 was 377 lbs dry. about what the new
GSXR750 is.

 

Uh, the rule has changed. The results for VIR show a Buell 1200 taking 4th place points. Translation: the bike is legal.

And it was made legal without telling anyone else in the class that it would be legal. That's a crock.

Now maybe later the rule will change back, but that's not the issue. The issue is that one competitor was given a significant advantage over everyone else and that's bullshit, plain and simple.

And how anyone can actually think that a 100hp Buell is equivalent to a lightweight bike is beyond me. And if you don't see taking 4th place, when starting from the last row of a 3-wave start in an 8-lap sprint race, as "smoking the field" then I don't know what to say.

Now I know how the AMA Pro Thunder guys who bought 800cc motors for 2001 feel....

 

Since I occasionally race in the lightweight classes (more next year with a new bike hopefully) I feel I can add a little bit here. I have one of those aging "lightweight" bikes, an 89 Hawk GT. Last time I dynoed my bike, it put out a whopping 48hp. So compared to my friends who are racing SV's in the same class, they usually spot me about 20hp. they are legal, I am legal.
But I also know of some people who are able to get over 90hp out of a hawk. Obviously this takes some major modifications (mainly a $4K billet crank), but they are still withing the rules of the class. If you have the money and the desire, you can probably get 90hp out of most of the bikes in the lightweight class (ok.. little two strokes may be pushing it!). I agree that riding will make up for some HP deficits, but I find it hard to make up that much!!! That's the main reason I'm not going to race my hawk any more. I guess I would be kinda upset to be working on getting points for a good finish (to move to expert, win a regional title, etc.) and to have someone who has a "provisional" bike that came into the series in the middle take some points away from me. I probably will get an SV to race and do track days next year, unless something else catches my eye because I"m not about to take my 600 on the track and play in the meatgrinder class...

Who knows, maybe if they let in Buells, I'll buy an ex-PT bike from a friend and show my SV riding friends what it's like to get blasted on the straights.

anyone got lots of spare safety wire that I may need to keep bolts and such on???

Jeff

 

the buell 1200 cc is a heavy weight machine.

now Buells' new addition "The BUELL BLAST" will qualify in LW class or d super...its a single cylinder, 450cc 1/2 thumper and the add says it's a BLAST

 

Yes, it's a Buell, a 1200cc twin, and they're not the crap that originally came out. Rich Oliver also steadily maintained that the difficulty was getting any kind of a decent lap with the big-bore four-strokes walking past on the straight & then getting in the way again, that's my simile. Everyone knows how it bums out your race when someone with motor walks past on the straight & then parks it in the corners, often too inconsistent to safely pass, & you spend your track time stuck behind them. I don't like to stuff people, but when they're IN THE WAY, I consider it a lesson. I've NEVER hit anyone, but many of my crashes have been from people hitting me. Sure, they apologized later, & usually admitted they were in too hot & thought it was their only chance. And we're talking Rich Oliver at his peak- I remember him coming out from under the bridge at Road Atlanta so fast he carried the front wheel all the way to the entry to T12. Lap after lap. I've never seen ANYONE else do that. And the venerable GS500 & EX500 are current production models with no expected termination date. Talk about a solid spares supply, parts availability, nothing comes close. And the Buell came in fourth, sure, from the back of the third wave in its first outing. Are the riders going to get retroactive contingencies?