In response to Greg Moore's crash

My Issues with Greg Moore's crash

I feel this needs a little more attention that it's getting, so I'm replying to Dan's post from another thread.

Well, ya know what? I'm NOT going to leave it alone, and I'm NOT going to be as polite as Roach was. This was one of the most dangerous situations I have ever seen, and it thoroughly pissed me off.

Greg Moore crashed and flew into that airfence...thank god it was there. By the sound of the crash, none of us thought he was coming out of there. When he did, he got a thunderous applause from all of us who saw the incident. After that, all hell broke loose. The cornerworkers saw that there was exploded, non-functioning airfence, as well as a bike still in the impact zone. He was signaling for a red flag, and finally started screaming for a red flag. It was apparent, from what I saw, that after two red flags during that race, that they wanted to get through that race so their precious Suzuki race was on time.

That bike was in a dangerous spot and if anyone else had crashed there, they would have suffered severe injuries. I am disgusted by that situation...I don't know who was responsible for that situation, but I ultimately blame WERA for this situation.

Not only was the bike in a dangerous impact zone, but the airfence was blown, so they just stuffed some hay behind it and threw the blown airfence up over top of it. Then, after a race or two, they pulled the bike out of the tire wall and set it against the wall in another impact zone.

It was clear to me that the cornerworkers at the scene KNEW that this was an extremely dangerous situation all the way around, yet nothing was done about it.

Rant over.

 

Well, this is the whole incident. First, all the CW in turn 4 were young. They were also untrained. I can't say much about that, but the guys that worked with me all week tought me what to do and how. Thus, I ended up in the corners that always seemed to have issues. I worked corner 3 all day until the Moore incident, then I came down to 4 to work, as I was told by a WERA official to do. I was told to take over the flagging and radio. Now, that being said, I did what I could to get the rider (Moore) the hell out of there and get him to safety. Thus, I used the 4 wheeler primarily because it's a hell of a walk from 3 to 4. When Moore went down, I was on the opposite side of 3 as a "runner" picking up down bikes and down guys. We had a radio with us, and when Moore went down, I flew down to 3 on the 4 wheeler to help. This was the problem. Control said NO RED FLAGS unless the rider is down and not getting up. Since Moore got up on his own, they would NOT call a red flag. Was he in a bad place, yes. The airfence was blown, the bike was in the airfence, but the race had to go on as told by control. Like I said, Race Control can only call Red Flags in all corners except turn 5. Those runners in 4 did indeed want a red flag, but the turn 4 tower kid wasn't authorized to throw it. My only issue is that there wasn't even a waving yellow at the turn 4 tower. The kid was confused, which is understandable. Turn 3 was standing yellow, turn 4 should have been waving yellow, but wasn't. This made it semi-dangerous because nobody coming up on turn 4 would have seen the incident. Now, after that race ended, Moore was picked up at the turn 3 access gate by his team. The bike should have been "burried" but wasn't because the runners in 4 thought "burried" meant leaning against the wall. So, I called control and had them come get the bike after the race. Now, the airfence issue I definetly don't agree with, but it's not up to the Corner Workers to make this call. The Race Director makes the call. Since there was no airfence now in 4, I was sent down to run the T4 tower. After that, we didn't have anymore incidents. Now, the airfence was replaced by another from the crash before Moore's, but with 2 fences being blown, and that obviously was a big crash zone, I agree that there should have been another replacement there, but again, it's not up to the Corner Workers. Race Control and Race Director run the show. Only turn 5 can go "red" without permission, and that's because it's a blind spot for riders when they go in. They definetly needed a experianced CW in turn 4, but they didn't have it. I was semi-experianced just because I know all the B.S. from racing, and so on, but the guys in T4 were definetly untrained. You can't blame them though. It's not there fault they weren't trained or had a Corner Captain to show them the ropes.

 

Dan, I saw you on the four wheeler, and yes, you got him out of there quick. That is not my beef. My beef is that there was a bike left dangerously in the impact zone, as well as the cornerworkers there as well. They were standing there screaming for a red flag as the bikes came rolling around again...I've never seen CW's run so fast. Once guy actually threw himself inside of the tires until the bikes were gone and he could get out of the way.

Moore was out of the impact zone...Thank God for that, but for the riders still on the track, there was an extremely dangerous situation left out on the track, and that upset me.

If another bike had crashed into there, there was a possibility of a ruptured gas tank, and much more.

That track is dangerous enough as it is with all of the walls around to have anything that COULD be prevented NOT be prevented.

 

Oh boy. This sounds like an sticky situation at best.

 

I completely agree. Hell, my 4 wheeler flying thru on the grass wasn't the safest either, but it worked. We all got really lucky. It was definetly a disaster waiting to happen. I also heard the Suzuki Cup races were being taped for television, thus, the less delays the better, but I too don't agree with it. I don't think time is that important compared to safety. They should of definetly thrown the red flag on that one, but the 4 previous red's kind of pissed off the director or whomever. The 15 minutes it takes to go get another airfence and blow it up is definetly worth someone's saftey, but again, race director and control calls it. I even asked (I think but not 100% positive, too much went on to remember) if I could keep a stationary yellow there since there was no airfence, but was also told to go "green" and drop the yellow. I was gonna keep it yellow until the end of the day if I had to, but told not to. Don't remember if I asked control or the race director about this. That's why I'm not 100 % sure.

 

Oh yeah, and we were also told to keep all bikes "burried" as long as it takes to not delay the races. By "burried" they meant on the other side of the wall, or away from any impact zones. Moore's bike was definetly not "burried" correctly, but it was also completely disabled to the point that the runners couldn't push it to the opening behind the wall. It was locked up, so it had to be carried. It's about 50 yards up hill to get the bike burried. They moved it as fas as possible from the crash zone that the last 3 took. The crash truck coming to get it would have caused yet another delay, that's why it wasn't there sooner. They wanted to wait until another red flag happened or huge enough gap from something else before they sent the crash truck to pick up the bike.

 

Dan, i wasnt on the scene when this happened, but yes, it was my son, Andy working the T4 cornerstation. He has worked that corner several times with me training him. Yes, he is young 16, and no, he isnt "certified" trained for cornerworking. He does however, have more experience than you working corners. He and i both have picked up bikes off the track before. Ive asked him about this incident and from what he's telling me is that all you guys (runners) were screaming at him to go RED FLAG. He said from what he saw, that yes, a red SHOULD have been thrown, but contol kept telling him no. CONTROL is in control. Now, as he was trained and told to do he does NOT throw a red unless control tells him to. He did exactly what he was told to do. Granted, yes you are older than he, and might not have gotten as flustered as he did, but he has been taught to respect his elders and those that have more experience than himself out there. So when control is in his headset telling him no red flag, and the runners are telling him YES red flag, sure, he's gonna get get a bit unraveled. I think anyone that isnt a "trained/experienced" cornerworker would in the same situation. He TRUELY enjoys working the corners, even asked on the way home what it would take to become AMA certified to do so. He WANTS to help and be the best he can. Im not gonna pass blame on anyone, WERA or anyone else. I wasnt there at the scene, but try not to get on the kids ass when he did EXACTLY as he was told to do. The last thing i told him when i dropped him off at the corner that morning was "do what i taught you to do and ALWAYS be paying attention to the track". Sounds like he did his job as it should be done.

 

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I agree, definetly not his fault. He was doing an awesome job. The only thing he didn't do was throw a waving yellow, but control wouldn't let him. My T3 tower person threw a standing yellow because of my 4 wheeler being on course, and the incident, but that wasn't authorized either. The race director wasn't thrilled with the 4 wheeler incident, trust me. Control should have thrown the red. The young guys that I was referring to as being inexperianced were the runners at the bottom by the airbags. They had nothing. No equipment, nothing. They carried that bike 40 feet with no straps, nothing. Two guys by hand, with no gloves on either. The WERA officials should have sent someone there that CW before. When I said experianced, I meant like the guys that were with me every day, regardless of the corner. Those guys have been doing it for 10 + years and know how to handle it. Hell, the guy I was working with in T3 was about to go down there and throw the red, so Andy wouldn't get in trouble. He did indeed do his job. Like I said, nothing could have been done by the CW's. As far as experiance Andy has over me, you're right. But, I had someone there to help me that's done it 1000's of times, he didn't . The tower isn't allowed to do anything but hold a flag and call in on the radio. He couldn't go down there even if it was clear to do so. Also, I didn't want to work T4. I was having more "excitement" in T3 with all the highsides . T4 tower is boring, not that it's a bad thing. Just not as much excitement. Plus, I left my water and everything back in 3

 

You know what else was :tut: ... the "runners" by the airbags didn't even have radios to talk back to the flag tower or control. This could have helped also. Hell, we had a radio in 3 that could go back to our flag station and to control. Then, to top it off, when I went down there and came back with Moore, I had the radio with me, but it wouldn't reach control or my T3 flag station. It was out of range. It's only good for a very short distance. So, T4 was completely unequipped, and I don't recall an extinguisher.

 

Todd, I think that's the issue. All of the CW's out there, including your son, were looking at the situation and KNEW there needed to be a red flag, but control vetoed it. I'm not sure where race control is stationed, but the CW's were in clear sight of the corner and knew what needed to be done, but that was ignored. I have no beef with the CW's...their lives were endangered too, including yours Dan, as you were getting down there to pick up Moore.

I am more concerned about the motivation for why the flag wasn't thrown. I know the Suzuki race was to be televised, and Suzuki is the big sponsor of the week, so god forbid we disappoint them for the safety of the riders. That was evidenced after them moving race 8 after its red flag to the end of the day. I think the whole thing was a complete mess and race control should be ashamed of themselves for that display of action.

There were seven of us up on the hill with a clear sight of the Moore situation, and about 30 other people, and everyone was clearly disgusted by what was going on. That was a very dangerous situation. It's one thing for racers who put themselves in harms way being out on the track, but the CW's are there to make things safe, and they were in just as much danger as everyone else.

I am thoroughly and completely disgusted every time I think about that incident. I give props to all of the CW's out there who did the best that they could. Without knowing the whole situation, I can't say exactly who is to blame or why, but SOMEONE is...and I will seriously think twice about racing in any race that is being controlled by whoever was in charge that day.

 

NOTE TO ALL: I'm not blaming the CW's or Andy. It's not their fault. Andy did as told. He did right. I'm not blaming him, or anyone else other than Control. Yes, the CW's were young, and judgement comes into play, but still, they did as told. Now, if I was down there, and I was Andy, I would have thrown the red, and said screw it. I'd rather have Control and the Race Director pissed off at me than to have a dead body to be responsible for. But, I do what I feel necessary and I don't give a damn. Don't care what they say about it. Andy, and the other guys, did as told, and to the best of their ability. (I'd throw a in their but they're not old enough )

Race Control and The Race Director are responsible for every riders safety and the safety of the race track. There were a few oil incidents out there that were also negelected, but again... talk to the race director. There's a reason he comes down there every time. (the guy in the blue cavalier is the race director) He says go back to your station... what do you do?

 

Hey Laura, i def. understand where youre coming from. As i said, i wasnt there, so i cant really comment alot on it. From what it sounds like, there def. should have been a red thrown. I will say this tho, and im sure Faynisha will correct me if im wrong, maybe with this being the GNF, the rules were different?? BUT, when i worked my first corner, when they "trained" me, that if i thought someones life could be in danger, i didnt NEED controls permission to throw a red. As a CW, i was on the track, i was the one that could see what was happening, NOT control. I dont understand why there should have even been an issue about throwing the red. If the CW's thought one should have been thrown, then WTF not throw it?? For me personally, i dont give a damn WHO is sponsoring the race or how much money is on the line. One of the things that alot of racers and cornerworkers talk about is how UNSAFE the WSB races are for CW's the way they just run out on the track, pick up a rider and drag him off the track without throwing a red. Hell, they did that when Kato was killed. They didnt know WHAT his condition was, back could have been broke, neck could have been broke, but for the almighty dollar and TV coverage, the race MUST go on, and thats BS.

I have a feeling, had i been working T4 that day, more than likely i would NOT have been asked to ever work again, because if the situation is as it has been stated, i would not have asked permission to throw a red. i WOULD have thrown it.

 

The one thing that I really still, don't understand is why does control have to approve of any red flags? Yes, a Flag CW could be premature in flagging a situation, and so on, but still. Wouldn't the 5 minute delay for a restart of a race due to a unnecessary red flag be better than the CHANCE of someone getting hurt. Same goes for the oil spill clean up's that were rushed instead of allowing more time for a better clean up.

Safety comes first. PERIOD !

 

AMEN, brother! I wholeheartedly agree with that whole post. I'm not trying to be a nasty person about the whole situation, but it was wrong, and someone needed to bring it to their attention. Roach posted in another thread, and he said it much more eloquantly than I did. I just wanted to get my voice heard about the subject because I have to agree, who the f*^& cares about the TV coverage over people's lives? Apparently, someone did.

If I were out there, I would have thrown a red flag too and they could have kissed my ass when they fired me from CWing.

 

Damn, I type too slow Both of you beat me to it

 

Todd,

Had you been watching this clusterduck in progress, you'd be seriously questioning ever racing with WERA again.

The bike was left unprotected in an impact zone. Not only that, due to the bike hitting, there was no longer any protection at all - airbag flat, nothing but scattered hay against a tire-then-concrete wall.

Prior to this, a rider hit the same spot (they threw the red flag that time ... hmmmm ... ) destroying the airbag and demolishing the bails that were there. The race was stopped to deploy a new bag.

Every CW we saw on the scene was screaming up the hill to the flagstands for a red flag. The spectators on the hill to riders' right (across the track from the accident, before you get to T5) including us were screaming at the CWs to throw a red flag. The CW holding the flags on the inside of T5 momentarily reached for the red when he/she heard this ... then stopped. Considering the four CWs at the scene all wanted a red flag, and it was obvious that there NEEDED to be a red flag (even to the non-racer spectators on the hill), I want to know who said not to throw it.

They are lucky a fifth person didn't decide to crash there. The result would have been very, very ugly. The force of Greg's bike (and Greg) hitting the fence and wall was very audible 70 yards away where we were standing. It is a very high-speed impact area. Every CW assisting Greg was put in danger when the bikes came back around at full speed. Every Rider on the track was put in danger for the remainder of the race.

- Roach

 

I'm interested to know if it was control or the race director who made the decisions on that race.