Hey Mongo...

Hell, I've seen those things run with the plug wires removed...

 

sean,

have you ever tried to race a bike with 40 year old wiring that in it's life has been hacked and cobbled together by previous owners?

if so, how did you finish....or did you even finish?

i understand the reason for filing the CB350's into SS rules, but you gotta admit, it isn't perfect or pretty.

hell i admit that i have two ground wires on my bike....that admission in itself is breaking the rules. breaking a ground wire and DNF'ing the race is pretty unattractive and expensive, so i installed two of them.

this new wiring clarification to the rules is pretty lame IMHO.

tex

 

yah, i get it too....but its got some major shortcomings.

heres an example...since i can use any ignition i want, ie, a pvl, mag, whatever.. i still have to carry a stock battery to make the lights work? and add wiring to accomplish this? thats where this is going? many race bikes use a crank fired ig. dyna for example...i am assuming the removal of the stator is also illegal? its either an engine part, or part of the wiring harness. though its removal required to run "any" ignition in many cases. which action supercedes which? i know its nit picking.....i honestly think its a non issue.....but its an issue thats been created by the vagueness of the rules. and it could have a huge affect.

i will also add that removing the points plate/advancer to add a cam fired ignition may also fall into this same category?? maybe??? there are after all 2 styles of ignition for these bikes. crank and cam triggered....bother require removal of engine parts or electrical components. mind you, not "modification" of parts, but removal.

tex is absolutely correct. racing a bike with 40 year old wiring is stupid. the factory honda wiring for my 77 cb550 is so bad, its left me on the side of the road many times. and thats a bike thats 20 years newer than what im racing on.

the amount of unwiring/rewiring required, to get the basic shit off the bike, can create so many problems, its mind numbing. just to get the handlebars off, you have to completely disassemble the horn button, the starter button, the turn signal switch, the high/low beams, the brake light...and im sure there are more. then yank them through the bars, then reconnect them? to what? and im not talking about just unplugging something, i mean, you have to completely take apart the switch gear. tiny springs, little contact plates, tiny screws......etc etc etc.....then reassemble them. because all of the wires go through the handlebars. and then, where the hell are you supposed to put that gigantic ball of wires you just made bigger?

the fact there are more ss wiring rules being mentioned, obviously without the consideration of the vintage classes they cover, is wrong.

and yes....if the rd falls into ss rules....then your wiring is also illegal i suppose.

mongo, i guess we are asking you to think about how the modern ss rules are affecting the vintage classes. making a blanket rule to cover your "money making" classes is fine. but if you're actually going to help out the vintage guys.....keep an open mind. not everything you write for ss rules is so easily applicable to vintage rigs. as the bikes are so dramatically different, i think its common sense that the rules need to be approached in the same manner.

 

The following is presented for example only:

I was involved in the SS-RD400 spec for its inclusion in V2. It is also allowed to run any ignition.

The SS spec is applied to the following on the RD400,

Frame, fork/triple clamps, wheels, Motor, cylinders (porting) carburetors.

Pipes and rear sets are legal

It is allowed to run vintage legal calipers, (twin piston opposed, single disc front and rear) to the class maximum diameter because of the lack of availability of both oem brake rebuilding supply's and suitable compound pads.

The "stock" PVL harness is all the PVL comes with, unlike modern bikes where the electronic engine controls can be modified or altered and improved with changes to the system thereby providing a performance improvement. No such gain is applicable to the RD400 etc. :up:

Specific restrictions and / or allowances with respect to the CB 350 stocker class are not covered in this example, if you ahve to have operation lights by the rules, hey the rules are the rules....

As I said this is how the RD was included BUT the final disposition of any rule / issue is up to Sean!

 

Since I am well known as the voice of reason around here, I would like to put this out as a point of view, but NOT A RULES SUGGESTION FOR SEAN, SINCE WE ALL KNOW THOSE SHOULD BE SENT AS AN EMAIL TO WERA @WERA.COM.

My perspective is that the Honda CB/CL 350 should be included in 350GP with all SS rules applying. To me that means all. I know people will complain about parts availability such as air cleaners and having to set and adjust points and cam chain tensioner rollers, BLAH BLAH BLAH. I have raced a CB350 for many years, so I know what it takes and these are all valid concerns. What I am saying is that it is not hard or expensive to build a SS legal CB350 and race it. If you want to address the concerns, then build a bike the way you want and race V-1. This does not prevent any of the current 350GP bikes from racing as many classes as they currently do against the same racers as they currently race. What it does is allow for a set of simple easy to enforce rules and allow somebody to enter racing without changing to 35mm forks, big drum brake, PVL, cam chain tensioner, removed starter, rewired bike, etc.

If anybody wants a battery box and complete wiring harness let me know, I probably have one, I'll send you for free. And if anybody is wondering, my CB350 is already a V-1 bike because I modified my swingarm.


Ken

 

Now see I was hooked right there...

 

brown noser....

i agree with you actually....ken.

and you left out sl.

however....tex makes a great point i think. a 40 year old wiring harness is a pain int he ass. crap, my 77 cb550 has left me stranded more times than i can count because of a main fuse that blows at random times. i have to carry an extra pack in my jacket pocket. i cant find the problem. also...how would you get around the wires through the bars issue? taking apart all of those connections, then re assembling them, well....you know as well as i....it pretty much sucks. and jesus....all kinds of issues can result.

thoughts?

also....i still think the deciding factor should be the motor frame mods. i think the racing is pretty close. its going to get better next season in gp.

really...i think its less about the actual rules, and more about the fact shit gets tossed out there for ss, with little regard for the work it creates for the vintage classes. just because someone feels a need to address an issue with the modern classes. i mean really...if you want 350 clubman.....just call it that. stock seats tanks headlight buckets, fenders foot pegs and handlebars. oh...wait....that sounds dangerous......

 

According to the rule book the wiring Harness may be modified on the Honda 350s


Honda 350cc twins with the following limitations: OEM Honda twin frame and swingarm (frame per Superbike rules, swingarm must remain stock), all other items must remain per Superstock rules except the following: any ignition system and coils, any internal expanding drum brakes, any diameter period forks to class maximum diameter, any period body work/fairing, starter and charging system may be removed, wiring harness may be modified and airbox may be removed.

 

Joe,
That is exactly what I think it could be. Stock fenders, tank, seat and all. You can change bars and footpegs for SS. Routing wires through a set of bars is not rocket science, it just involves a drill and some thought. If you don't want to run a 40 year old wiring harness, then run V-1. What is the issue.

Ken

 

Joe, Ken, Mongo et al,

From the RB:

VINTAGE CLASSES
WERA Vintage has three classifications of racing machines: “GP”, “Formula”, and “Vintage” - V1 through V 7.

Even if a case could be made for 'Production' or 'Superstock' vintage race bikes, it makes no sense under the current class structure to run anything resembling a stock bike in a GP class. The Hondas are indexed into a 'GP' class, and in the spirit of the class should be fully kitted GP replicas, as allowed under the RB.

From the RB:

“GP” - These classes are for older factory “purpose built” racers and street machines which may be built up with any “of the period” GP, engine, transmission and frame modifications.

The SS limit logically applies to the CB350 motor, as a 50HP THR Honda will obviously outperform even the factory GP period bikes. All the other perfectly legal enhancements, such as ignitions, forks, brakes, bracing (limited), fairings etc simply allow the CB350 some resemblance to, and parity with, the real racebikes in that class. Arguing over (unused) batteries or stock (unused) wiring, for example, on a bike running in a GP class is kind of missing the point. Keep in mind that this is a class that currently permits the same bike to legally replicate the appearance of a factory GP bike with full fairing, alloy tanks/seats, rearsets, Ceriani forks, and at today's exchange rate $5,700 worth of factory replica brakes!

http://www.motocicliveloci.it/inglese/catalogue/frenitamburo_uk.htm

The indexing is a compromise that allows the class to exist for the handful of real 'classics' and provides a 'relatively' affordable class for the Honda guys. Since the Hondas seem to be the bulk of the WERA vintage grids these days, I would recommend the 350GP Honda guys get together with WERA and put together a better solution. Rather than the current class-within-a-class I would suggest running the current 350GP spec Hondas run as a spec class in the 500GP/V2 race, with V1 as the bump class.

Personally, I prefer to avoid all this anguish and just run V1 - the bike's intended class...have the guys with real 350GP bikes promote their class, and let it sink or swim on its own.

 

Quick, put the lid back on the can of worms!

 

Eric,

I agree with you in that Honda 350s should run in V-1. My only point is that if they are indexed into 350GP, then it should be in SS form. If somebody thinks that it is too difficult for them to comply with all the SS restrictions, then they should build their bike for V-1, kind of like you have.

I guess I don't understand why this should be a "can of worms"? Either follow the rules for the class you want to run or run the class your bike fits in.

Why do vintage bike racers have to be special, I have always thought of myself as a racer. If I race my FZ600 on Saturday I am a vintage guy. If I race it on Sunday in Clubman, then am I a "modern" guy. This is just like the Brembo MC and double bubble debate in SS and it is real simple, if you want to run a Brembo M/c and or a Double bubble, then your in the superbike class, otherwise, where does it stop.

I don't feel any more special than any other racer, so I guess I will just race my bike in the class the rules says it fits in. Since I am building a couple of new bikes this year I sent Sean an e-mail asking for clarification of the rules so I know which classes to enter which bikes in. Pretty simple.

Remember cheaters cheat, haters hate and racers race, which one are you?


Ken (The voice of reason)

 

ken-

your "not a proposal - opinion" is still contrary to the current rules, see erics and 71 nortons posts above. the 350s already have a wire harness exemption. why don't we all just RTFRB before we get so wound up.

-timothy

 

i no longer wonder why Mongo is full of so much hate.

you CB350 guys are a pain in the ass.

 

You CB350 guys always want to be the center of attention. Can we get back to talking about real bikes, like the RZs?

 

Ken, my can o worms comment was meant as a joke.

I thought you knew when something was funny, because we all just laugh like horses at everything you post.

 

As Tim put it: RTFRB...simple! All else is mostly speculation and opinion. If they were indexed into LW Superstock, I would agree that they should be in SS form...however...

They're indexed into 350GP. Since they're in a GP class then logically they should be in GP form...which currently is allowed. If you want to propose a new class/concept to WERA, start from scratch; however, I would recommend not scrambling this class any further. Otherwise the term 'GP' will have no meaning at all. I'm no purist, but the sight of 9 commuter bikes and 1 Ducati/Aermacchi hardly warrant being called a GP race.

This shouldn't be such a big deal, the guys in the class could use this forum to work out the couple of details in question for the Hondas, agree on the wording and forward an actual proposal to Mongo. I found him very reasonable in the past in his handling of my two requests.

 

Once per off-season - a CB350 rules debate.