Goose neck or bumper pull trailer?

TS Performance is another popular chip for the Power Stroke Fords. I'm leaning that way myself when I eventually acquire the necessary wallet shims to fund the project.

 

Mongo and I are in disagreement over this. The law states you must keep a log book and other DOT requirements once you go over 10,000 pounds if vehicle is used for commercial use. There is NO RV exception if you use an RV for pulling your race trailer then you must comply with US DOT if you cross state lines. By the fact there is money/contingency to be won at the races you are commercial whether you win any money or if it covers your expenses. The rules are easy to comply with, record your hours driving in a log book (they sell them at truck stops), no alcohol in truck/trailer, and get a US DOT #(they are free) and bi yearly physical your normal doctor can sign off when you go get a physical. (Oh by the way DWI in a 10,000 truck is .04% ) You also need to carry copies of the current registration showing you have paid taxes on the weight you are carrying.
If you want to sneak under the eyes of the DOT you can often get by by having a blank truck/trailer that doesn't SCREAM race hauler but that will not insure you will not get stopped, Chris Ulrich was pulling a white trailer I was told when he was stopped.

Now onto GAWR and GVW the Gross Vehicle weight is not the combination of the max of both axles. How the GVW is set I am unsure I think it might be set by manufacturer as I have some trucks at 90% and some at 85% of sum of GAVWR. I would assume it has something to do with weight transfer and braking ability. You need to be sure you register the truck for the weight you are carrying a lot of times the dealership to save a buck when registering will register a truck as 1ton truck empty 7000 plus 1 ton =9000 pounds when it really is 10,500 so you can't legally carry more than 9,000 pounds and DOT will nail you for it, Overweight fine plus if it is not food or wood product you must unload to legal weight on the side of the road if more than 10%.


The DOT has gotten real serious about heavy vehicles as the amount of damage they can do in an accident is great. I don't feel that there should be any exemptions anyone and everyone carrying large weights SHOULD have some degree of responsibilty.
For more info here is the website Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration for who it applies to go here
One of these days when I have a free moment I am going to write an article up on this but for now take the info I have given you and do IT.
The ONLY way you might get around not having to comply with this is if you have zero sponsors, zero product discounts, and run classes that have zero contignency, and even then you may will have to show that in court otherwise you ARE in a commercial venture. I guess that would be a hobbyist racer. You MUST comply and stop at weigh stations (trust me no big deal in over 10 years of dealing with this stuff I have yet to have to get out of the cab but if you bypass a weigh station then you are in for it)

I am not trying to discourage anyone from getting a rig in the 10k to 26k range just be sure you comply with the rules they are easy and just do it.

 

OK, first things first ... I don't own a big trailer nor truck ... I still have my six year old SUV with a 7x12 enclosed trailer. But the topic of trailers and towing is one I've researched quite a bit.

With regard to the DOT requirements ... the ~TRAILER~ weight has to exceed 10,000 pounds before the DOT logbook and license requirements takes affect. For the most part, the towing vehicle can have a GVWR of up to 26,000 pounds, and the trailer can have a GVWR of up to 10,000 pounds before you attract the attention of the DOT.

If this was not the case, owner/drivers of F350's and similar trucks from Dodge and Chevy would all have to have DOT log books, even while operating a totally empty truck.

Regarding the "bad math" by Ford, the GVAR-front and GVAR-rear DO NOT add up the total GVWR ... this allows for a slight load "imbalance."

The GCWR, or gross combined weight rating (truck, cargo, and trailer) of a strongly rumored 2003 F450 pick up truck will be close to 30,000 pounds. I doubt Ford would market such a vehicle if a special license or DOT log book was required for its use. (Note: right now, the F450 is available in chassis only, but you can get a p/u body from an aftermarket supplier)

One major exception ... any vehicle registered as an "RV" can exceed the 26K pound limit. The definition of an RV means being able to cook, sleep, and use the toilet. Any sort of homegrown vehicle will have to have its VIN number re-registered to ID it as such.

For some good info on towing, go to this URL for the "towing and hauling" section of ford-diesel.com :

http://forums.ford-diesel.com/ubbthreads/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=UBB16

 

Eric,

I totally agree with you on the law regarding commercial vehicles - where we disagree is the concept of commercial. I hold that what the vast majority of racers do is not commercial, some cops might disagree but until I see a ruling by a major court I'm still going to disagree with you on this one...

 

Will putting a simple "Not For Hire" sticker on my truck and/or trailer help with any of this?

 

I think Mongo is correct on this one. You need a CDL if you're using the roadways to derive commercial benefit. Traveling via the means of the day, i.e. on the roadways, is a Constitutionally-protected right. You're not deriving a benefit from travelling on the roads, you're merely getting from point A to point B.

And yes, that means you do not need a driver's license to travel by the means of the day. Most folks, cops included, will argue this and tell you that driving is a privledge granted by the state. They'd also be wrong. That has been argued before and folks have beat the rap using this exact defense for a "driving w/o a license" charge. But since the case is dismissed, court precident is hard to find.

To get back to the licenses, in PA you need a Class A license to tow a trailer over 10,000lbs. A CDL is required if you tow this trailer for commercial purposes. But a big race trailer requires no CDL to tow. Best of all is one registered as an RV (i.e. with living quarters) since many states have special regs for RVs.

 

Well I have been dealing with these issues now for upwards of 15 years. We dropped from 27,000 pound truck to under 26,000 truck/trailers to eliminate some restrictions but over the last 5 years ALL of the paperwork that used to be required for only over 26,00 now applies 10,00 and up.

You are missing a few things Rick the 10,000 trailer has to do with what type of LICENSE you need class A,B,C,D to pull that weight truck/trailer.
Class D under 10,000 total weight
Class C under 26,001 total
Class B over 26,000 with trailer under 10,000
Class A any truck/trailer combination
the regulations ALL go into efect at 10,000.001 pounds you must have log book, physical etc.

The log book etc is ONLY needed if you are commercial if you buy a 1 ton dually to look cool or haul your boat to the lake you do not have any regulation requirements, you could even use a full 80,000# semi for a personal vehicle, haul your boat to the lake, get groceries, anything personal (IE not for furherance of business) and the only thing you would need is the license no forms whatsoever.
There is no RV exemptions only a commerical requirement, Do you really beleive that if you could install stove toilet etc in your truck you suddenly were exempt? Have you ever been in a Moving company's driver's truck? most have a full RV due to the lightweight items they haul.
Don't confuse license requirements with paperwork requirements.

Oh go to the Ford Forum for info on what DOT laws are?yeah right goto the peopel who make and enforce the laws call your local DOT office

Sorry this is just reaching a boiling point for me as I keep seeing idiots on the road that have been running all night and they should not be. Big weight+ no sleep = big wrecks. My insurance keeps going up because of all the idiots running around going I don't have to obey the law and insuracne covering their stupid illegal actions. Read it obey it. It costs next to nothing to comply why do people insist on fighting it? Do you really NEED that beer before you get on the road? NO besides the fact you CANNOT have ANY alcohol 4 hours prior to departure.

 

Mongo,

That's drive for 10 before stopping for 8, not vice versa.

As for license classes, the letters he defined are the same in PA, more or less. From the back of my license:

A. Combination > 26,000/Tow > 10,000
B. Single > 26,000/Tow < 10,001
C. Single/Comb < 26,001
M. Motorcycle/Motor Driven Cycle

So, I need a class A to tow a big gooseneck. I don't need a CDL unless I'm engaged in commercial activity, hence the name Commercial Driver's License. And no CDL means no logbook, medical card, or any other restrictions.

 

Nope Texas is way lax this is federal besides the fact "my" district office is in Atlanta (southern service center)

Why does everyone get so bent out of shape over this? it is EASY!
And a CDL and paperwork codes are too vastly different things. One checks your compentence to drive the vehicle other makes you keep track of how you drove the vehicle.

Over 26,000 gross weight violations are real serious and they don't play around license revocation, huge fines for you and who you are driving for, barring of ever getting a CDL license. Oh well you know what you are playing with but don't try to keep people from being informed on what the law is not your interpretation. Call the people if you don't believe me tell them what you are doing don't lie to them or yourself and they will tell you EXCATLY what must be done.

 

Many horse people and farmers prefer goosenecks for towing horses & livestock. Especially if the trailer is aluminum. I've heard them say that towing an aluminum trailer with a full load is like towing a steel trailer with no load!
Only drawback I can see is that you can't use much of the truck bed for storage.

 

The lack of sway is what makes them so nice for livestock. I've seen it first-hand, having towed a horse trailer for the ex-wife on more than one occasion. No matter how stable your tag trailer may be, it still shimmys and shakes down the road, ever so slightly. As you can imagine, this is a less-than-pleasant experience for livestock since they get to try and stand in the trailer as it rolls down the road. As a result, they arrive at the destination tired and stressed out. The same trip in a gooseneck results in much less stress on the animal because the trailer just moves around less underneath them. As a result, the animal isn't nearly as ragged out when you arrive because it hasn't spent the entire trip standing on a shaker table.

As for steel vs. aluminum, the only difference there is weight. Aluminum trailers are lighter and as a result in many cases a loaded aluminum trailer will weigh the same as an unloaded steel one. But having towed both types of gooseneck trailer, I can say that I noticed no difference between the two materials as far as towing was concerned. Other than the extra weight, the steel trailer behaved the same as the aluminum one.

And yes, you do lose some of the bed space for storage. But you get most of it back in the trailer overhang compartment.

 

okay maybe not bent out of shape but very wrong advice. and you may want to check this law out before dispensing any more "facts" 390.13 Aiding or abetting violations
From the FMCSA
Gross combination weight rating (GCWR) means the value specified by the manufacturer as the loaded weight of a combination
(articulated) motor vehicle. In the absence of a value specified by the manufacturer, GCWR will be determined by adding the GVWR of the
power unit and the total weight of the towed unit and any load thereon.

Gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) means the value specified by the manufacturer as the loaded weight of a single motor vehicle.

Commercial motor vehicle means any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in interstate commerce to transport
passengers or property when the vehicle--

(1) Has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross combination weight rating, or gross vehicle weight or gross combination weight, of 4,537 kg
(10,001 lb) or more; whichever is greater; or

(2) Is designed or used to transport more than 8 passengers (including the driver) for compensation; or

(3) Is designed or used to transport more than 15 passengers, including the driver, and is not used to transport passengers for compensation;
or

(4) Is used in transporting material found by the Secretary of Transportation to be hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and transported in a
quantity requiring placarding under regulations prescribed by the Secretary under 49 CFR, subtitle B, chapter I, subchapter C.

Interstate commerce means trade, traffic, or transportation in the United States--

(1) Between a place in a State and a place outside of such State (including a place outside of the United States);

(2) Between two places in a State through another State or a place outside of the United States; or

(3) Between two places in a State as part of trade, traffic, or transportation originating or terminating outside the State or the United States

I did find out a couple things that I did not know today after sitting with enforcement officer (who by the way was preparing to go on a "sting" of a craft convention for the RVs that the vendors use to haul their merchandise) one that you are considered in Intersate commernce for 4 months prior to and after an interstate trip for all intrastate travel.
Second you must have an "application" on file at eh primary address for your DOT # that includes copies of drivers license, medical examination, yearly state driving report, insurance, truck records, trailer (if applicable).

Be careful there is no loophole, that is a noose.

 

The operative word in all of those is "interstate commerce." I don't believe that travelling from point A to point B on the roadways is interstate commerce. Roadracing does not involve using the roadways for profit.

But as always, it takes a lawyer and a court to defend your rights against Johnny Law and his band of goons.

 

precendent is already set racing IS Interstate Commerce. If I must I will go get the court case numbers for you. No screw that go ahead keep your heads in the sand I am done.

 

I recall some years ago that the NHRA Top Fuel haulers had to begin pulling in to weigh stations in CA. I think there was an issue of the immense size of the rigs that required them to stop at the weigh stations.

 

I know a place in south georgia where you can get a 8x24 for a little over 4 grand, brand new, ramp door, prewired DC light... I really wanted a gooseneck, but you can't beat that for the price, not by a longshot....

 

This Came From FEDERAL GOV

Classes of License:

The Federal standard requires States to issue a CDL to drivers according to the following license classifications:

Class A -- Any combination of vehicles with a GVWR of 26,001 or more pounds provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds.

Class B -- Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 or more pounds, or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 10,000 pounds GVWR.

Class C -- Any single vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that does not meet the definition of Class A or Class B, but is either designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver, or is placarded for hazardous materials.

Check The Web Site @ http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/registration-licensing/cdl/cdl.htm

All states must follow this as a guideline. As well even a car with no payload can be concidered as "Comercial" if that car is used for Comercial Purposes. Not to say that they will be check but if the letter of the law is strickly followed that could be enforced.
I just tried to get my 1 ton insured and i was told it was a "Comercial Vehicle" because it has a tow capacity of 10,000lbs.
I drove semi's for 11 years and from my experiance and from my understanding of the law,
Any Single Vehicle (BOB TAIL, BOX VAN, FLAT BED and such) that weights 26,000 or more Requires a CDL, or any vehicle that is towing a trailer of more than 10,000lbs requires a CDL.
As far as the comment of driving a semi with out the trailer to the store with out a CDL, you MUST HAVE a CDL to drive any semi tractor anywhere because it has a GVWR of 80,000
Yes there are statutes in the laws that allow for RV's and Travel Trailers. Even a 43 passenger bus (CDL required as a norm) can be driven if registered as a private bus and is under 26,000lbs GVWR
At least that's my understanding of the rules.
I have checked in to it and for me to be able to use my 1 ton with a Gooseneck rated at 14k, I'd have to get a CDL because the trailer can haul more than 10,000lbs. Now if I just pull a toy hauler or travel trailer I don't have to worry about the CDL Requirement. Those are covered by the RV/Travel Trailer waver.
I hope this helps out.
The reason I came in here to start with was to help decide weather or not to use a bumper pull or gooseneck trailer and got to reading the comments about CDL or no CDL.
All states must follow the Fed Law posted on the web I pasted the link for.
Thanks for your time,
RadioQuack