Counter the Kramer?

Discussion in 'Tech' started by Kurlon, Jul 13, 2018.

  1. RIB333

    RIB333 Well-Known Member

    Not sure of the numbers.
    The Kramer is a modern bike. The XR650L can go to a high comp 670 without being a grenade I've been told but it's still an air cooled older design.
  2. Kurlon

    Kurlon Well-Known Member

    And the liquid version seems to top out at 680cc, with numbers that can be matched by modern 450s with little effort.
  3. parillaguy

    parillaguy vintage+GP racer

    Hmmm...lets see. Buy a mid 1990s TZ250 or Honda RS250 for $10,000+, take out the motor and put in a motor you have paid $3000+ to buy and upgrade, upgrade old suspension from the 1990s to something better ($1200.00+) and then figure out the labour to do the conversion ($3000.00). Then hope it works the way you want it to. I can count three of these "franken" bikes that are sitting unused in garages within 100 miles of my home that the owners don't ride because they don't work or their Ducati's are more fun to ride. S
    ounds to me like you are going to waste your time and money.
  4. regularguy

    regularguy Always Krispy

    The answer is obvious. Buy a Kramer
  5. tecknojoe

    tecknojoe Well-Known Member

    My 690 was 335lbs with a full tank, and 73hp with full exhaust and stock motor
    The R model Kramer is about 50lbs lighter, and about 7 more peak hp from that.

    for reference
    418 likes this.
  6. cf

    cf Well-Known Member

    100% agree, BUT this is a build vs buy thing. There is no question that buying something that is ready to go, designed/tested/built for a dedicated purpose by a dedicated team of people makes the most sense if the goal is to buy the best off-the-shelf machine for a specific purpose. But tinkering is also fun in it's own way for some people, and for them, a Kramer would be in the same 'class' as an R6 or any other production machine, in that it's something that you just buy and run.

    If you don't like tinkering then some mongoloid hybrid of frankenbike is absolutely a terrible mistake. But some people are looking for problems to solve, and if anything once the machine is working as intended the interest is lost because there's nothing left to do, and it's time to move to something new that DOES have problems that will need to be solved.

    Will the mongoloid hyrbid beat a Kramer in any way (cost, time invested to get it race ready, outright laptime)? In every respect the answer is almost always no. You can't make something in your shed at night after the kids are asleep that is better than what professionals make for a living. But when all is said and done it's yours, and there is some value in that, the same as the crappy drooping clay pot you made as a kid. Sure, it's shite, but it's YOUR shite.

    Different strokes.
    JBall and Kurlon like this.
  7. Kurlon

    Kurlon Well-Known Member

    So... I'm just going to print and frame that.
  8. ScottyRock155

    ScottyRock155 A T-Rex going RAWR!

    t500racer, emry, TurboBlew and 7 others like this.
  9. cf

    cf Well-Known Member

    He only made 10 of them though. If one of the OEM's had decided they wanted to win in those classes and they only had to build a handful to be eligible then he wouldn't have won anything. The only way to beat the factory is for the factory not to be in the competition. I mean, they build GP bikes, they could build anything else they wanted IF they really wanted to.

    To me the 'better/faster than' argument is not a good one, because I can't strive to be like an OEM, but I can strive to be like John Britten...
  10. 418

    418 Expert #59

    There's a company out there that makes turbo kits for KTM singles for snowmobile purposes....

    Just sayin.
    Phl218 likes this.
  11. TWF2

    TWF2 2 heads are better than 1

    Find old wood rotax roadracer
  12. Kurlon

    Kurlon Well-Known Member

    CCS has a rule saying turbo/super charging is only allowed if the bike shipped with it, and it has to race up a class if so equipped. I only remembered this from seeing it in LRRS' rule book when I started racing. Interestingly... that rule isn't present in the 2018 LRRS book... I wonder how that factors in with the CCS Single Cylinder Blind Spot? WERA is similar, turbo/super run up a class, and are outlawed for vintage?

    Aerocharger is claiming 90hp for their KTM 450 snowbike supercharger.
  13. cf

    cf Well-Known Member

    I don't like this can of worms because it opens the door to resources outside of what someone in a shed can reasonably do. Motor swaps are one thing, but once turbos are on the table things get unfair really quickly due to resource limitation, like aero on 4 wheel race vehicles.

    A single based around a rear cylinder head from a big twin, with the exhaust port where the intake port usually goes and the turbine inlet mounted as directly as possible to the exhaust port, with the turbo taking the place of where the airbox would usually go and chargecooler where the radiator normally goes, and underseat radiator ala Britten, would be a potent weapon. Specially with modern drive by wire throttle and wastegate controls, and fuels like E85-100, I am quite sure a nice linear and wide torque curve could be achieved, with good scaling of throttle application to torque for a very rideable relationship with various throttle openings and transitions.

    But I don't think a machine like this would be in the 'spirit' of a builders allowed class like most singles classes. It sounds like something you would work on at work, not at home just to tinker around with. Certainly if I saw something like that roll out of a trailer, I would kick the ground and mutter about resources and fairness.
  14. 418

    418 Expert #59

    A turbo KTM 690 could make a honest 140rwhp if it held together long enough.

    So that's a 160BHP, 280lbs bike.
  15. Tristan

    Tristan Well-Known Member

    Is this the "new math" I've heard about?
  16. Tristan

    Tristan Well-Known Member

    Britten is an extreme example, but I totally believe there's lots of people on this forum who could build a bike to better a Kramer. It's all about building right up to limits of the rules of the class/org. you're running. I'm not one of those people, so if I could scrape $20K together I'd be ordering up a Kramer.
    metricdevilmoto likes this.
  17. Kurlon

    Kurlon Well-Known Member

    418 likes this.
  18. And the Kramer is also built that doesn’t really fit in any class. Your point? I like what Kramer has done, and he was somewhat smart building the bike the way he did but he’s also doing what you stated, trying to race in a class with no factories. I don’t think there is any comparison to the two bikes either, there’s nothing all that special with the Kramer. Many could do it if they had the capital to start with. I’ve seen a lot better stuff with a lot less resources.
  19. The Attack GP bike is a great example and I would’ve loved to see it with a bunch more funding. He did some pretty amazing stuff on a very limited budget.
  20. metricdevilmoto

    metricdevilmoto Just forking around

    Everyone likes to think that Britten was whittling pistons from billet with a pen knife and carving swingarms from scraps in the shed, but the truth about those motorcycles and how they were made is more fascinating, but far less fantastic than what people think.

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