Police HarASSment

Okay, why did David say yes when they asked to search the truck?? I would have told them to kiss my ass!!!!

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[This message has been edited by Due North (edited 07-19-2001).]

 

Because then the Police would search him anyway because of some "Suspicion" that they manufacture. Dammit, I watch Cops all the time!

 

So why did they stop him in the first place?

They asked to search after examining his registration??..what probable cause can result from proper identification? Were there questions or discrepanices with the paperwork?

More of the AZ funk... ..and AZ is a nice place to mess up!

 

I-10, they still cross AZ, but at least then they can enjoy the Immigration Inspections around ElPaso...when I moved east I had one more race weekend with my friends in LA. So, I dyed my hair red like a Coke can, and on the way the Immigration guy asked me in a funny way "is that your real hair?", yeah right. It wasn't orangey red, it was dark red! Of course he didn't even look inside the 26' motorhome for contraband, just underneath...?

 

fwiw-phoenix is one of the largest stolen vehicle cities in the us, especially motorcycles. So trailers with bikes are probably a red flag there. I'm not defending the cops here, but for that state I'm not surprised about a thourough inspection.

 

I bought a new trailer this year, and began dreaming of all the cool stickers and pictures of bikes and riders and track maps and ... then I thought about the bike theives and cops and whatnot, and decided that a blank white trailer arouses the least interest. Me thinks the less the better, now.

 

Maybe paint it up with Roto-Rooter or Septic Tank Pump-Out logos?? nothing scares me more than the idea of opening up a sealed container with a label like that. P-u!
Nah you're probably right, someone probably wants to steal their doo-doo pumps or hoses.

 

They REALLY need to stop cooking donuts in those Motorhomes while driving down the interstate.

But really, I am glad all this is happening now, because I was wanting to try an do a complete CCS CA Regional Season next year or maybe 2003. Now I know I should plan to get stopped while going to Firebird races.

So far it only looks like larger vehicles are getting stopped. We little, little novice guys with our little trucks and open utility trailers should be OK. But I know the score, my race bike is CA registered and I carry the license plate, and a photocopy of the title with me. Throw on the lights and I have a street legal bike (sort of).

Richard

 

Hey Mr. Lesher,
There existed (in '98 when I moved away) a fairly obscure law about having a bike registered (with a sticker to prove it) just for transporting the bike on CA roadways.

I'll ask friends at Aramel Racing about what they did and how to get it. It is CA-DMV thing, and may actually require bringing the bike to one of their facilities for VIN verification. I thought at first is was a joke, but heard later about persons being questioned by the CHP (always though after first being stopped for speeding).
I haven't heard of anyone actually getting fined for it. I'll let you know when I find out more.

 

<<Hey Mr. Lesher,
There existed (in '98 when I moved away) a fairly obscure law about having a bike registered (with a sticker to prove it) just for transporting the bike on CA roadways.>>

“MR.” Oh no, slowly but surely I am being called that more often as I approach 30.

The CA DMV is a little screwed up. Here is the score. Let’s say you built a race bike from the ground up, frame, engine, and EVERYTHING is fabricated. This bike WILL NEVER hit the street, and NEVER existed on the street to begin with. There is NO title or bill of sale. YES!!!!!!!!!!!!! Technically you will need a “transportation” permit.

A transportation permit costs $3, and it’s sole purpose is to record you as the owner of the machine, and grant you passage on the streets as you TOW the bike from track to track.

The catch with the DMV is that they are beyond CLUELESS. A racer buddy of mine tried to procure such a transportation permit (he has a vintage bike with no recognizable VIN or documentation). When he asked for one they gave him the application for a NON OPERATIONAL status registration (this is a $15 fee). He is a savvy guy, and anticipated the DMV’s obliviousness. He showed the clerk the DMV documentation and regulations about the exact “transportation permit” he wanted. A supervisor then ran his transaction and pulled out of box of stickers that haven’t seen the light of day in 15 years. The sticker crumbled in his hand it was so old.

Yes, there is a transportation registration for non street bikes, but odds are the DMV clerks won’t know what it is.

The alternative rout is a NON OPERATIONAL registration. This of course only works for properly VIN bikes with titles. Because I used a former street bike I was able to do this. When your registration expires you can take the option not to renew for street use. You put your bike on NON OP, and this costs $15. Then if you want to later put the bike back on the street you pay the full registration. The non op prevents penalties from incurring.

I decided to pay a few extra bucks and go NON OP through the mail verses personally going to the DMV and getting a transportation tag.

If you really want a transportation tag be prepared to go with documentation in hand and show the clerk the EXACT regulations that govern it. Than you internet research!!!!!!!!!!!

Richard

 

The motorhome had paper plates (recently purchased, new plates hadn't arrived from CA DMV).

David knew he didn't have anything in the MH and wasn't sure what to do, so gave them permission to search.

Have you ever had a vehicle searched? Let me say this: They don't put the stuff they pull out back where it was, or even close the drawers/cabinets, etc., and if you like your helmet left out on the floor, a search is for you!

My MH will be equipped with driver scripts in the future, written by my lawyer.

I'll all in favor of police doing their job. In the case of CU and the pickup and David and the MH, there was something else going on here. And the AZ HP needs some education--a sticker on a bike does not mean a rider is an employee of Suzuki and therefore subject to commercial driver regulations!

[This message has been edited by julrich (edited 07-20-2001).]

 

Not to mention the notion of "if you didn't do anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about in a search" is a load of crap too. We have a 4th Amendment right to be left alone, and having The Man crawl up your shorts for no good reason goes DIRECTLY against that one.

 

With all due respect, pretty weak. I guess then that it would be okay to show up at peoples houses and tell them that they would be detained for hours unless they consented to a search of their home - just because they live in a high crime area.

So much for the constitutional right to presumption of innocence.

...or a violation of your constitutional rights. You've gotta remember that its not fair that a cop is standing at the side of the road with a gun and handcuffs asking people to give up their rights. This is not a fair and equitable situation. In effect, they're really bullying people into submission.

Do the cops first offer to put them into contact with a lawyer who would tell them that there can be no repercussions from refusing the search??? Do cops first explain to them that if they say no, they'd be happy to send them on their way - no hassles?? Believe it or not, cops are in a position of authority, the uniform, hat, police car are all specifically designed to psycologically intimidate people.

Its a proven fact, police can't stop crimes. I think people think the system sucks.(courts, lawyers,...)

 

Sorry PACMAN, I know you're a cop and apparently you are a good guy, too. But the cops have totally lost all credibility with most law abiding citizens who've made close contact with them. I know they see mostly scum and this affects their view of humanity and yada, yada, yada, but that doesn't excuse them for what they have become. I've lived in a high crime area, been burgled, assaulted, grand theft auto'd and my take-away lesson from being the victim repeatedly is that the cops know that criminals provide them with a job and they are grateful to them for it. To me, the difference between a cop and a criminal is (well, there's no difference, really) that I get in less trouble for defending myself against a criminal who hasn't been licensed by the state to harass me. Good cops are tax collectors (you, know, the road tax for simultaneously exceeding the number on the sign and not being a cop) and bad cops are licensed criminals. I've never found a good use for a cop. I do know from 3 distinct personal experiences that if something bad happens to me or a member of my family that the cops aren't going to help me. And I wasn't even there when they abandoned a large part of LA. Their job is to enforce the law - selectively. To hell with helping the public.

 

OK, maybe you all missed the line that said I wasn't there so I'm trying to speculate what happened. I didn't realize so many of you were there to witness the whole thing.

I guess some people need to do more research on their own rights. I must have over looked the line in the 4th amendment that says " People have the right to be left alone" Last time I read it, it said you have the right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures. Welcome to the wonderful world of law! Who defines unreasonable? The Jury, Judge, and some lawyers. We know what is considered unreasonable. That's why I said if the officer didn't have a reason to search on something he observed, he can't search without a warrant or an alert from a drug dog! To search without one is "an unreasonable search and a violation of your fourth amendment rights" Again I can't find the line on being left alone. If I could I'd sue the shit out of these telemarketers.

*** Posted by JU***
"I'll all in favor of police doing their job. In the case of CU and the pickup and David and the MH, there was something else going on here. And the AZ HP needs some education--a sticker on a bike does not mean a rider is an employee of Suzuki and therefore subject to commercial driver regulations"

JU I don't know the vehicle laws in AZ! If they are anything like ours, I agree this officer needs to go back to school. I company decal doesn't mean anything. I don't think Chevy pays me to drive my truck to the AMA races, so I'm pretty sure that doesn't make me a Com. Vehicle. Again, I don't know what they were using to make that kind of assumption. I know you won't believe this, but there are some cops that don't know as much as they should! Then again I bet people like that are limited to Police Work.

Due North you need to open your eyes next time you read a post. You seemed to miss the point and draw your own conclusions. As for police showing up at people's houses and detaining them for hours unless they consent to a search, where the hell did that come from. If your stopped and an officer asks to search your vehicle you can say "NO"! If you say no and he doesn't have anything else to go on like I mentioned in the above posts, you are free to go. He can not detain you just to piss you off or until you say yes. It doesn't work that way. I'm sure you have had a friend though it happened too, right. Be sure and dramatize that story and blow it out of proportion when you reply too.

As for the presumption of innocence: Just because you watch CIS or NYPD Blue doesn't make you a legal advisor. Wasn't that you trying to tell the members that they could speed and always win in court. Yeah, good advice. Your trying to bring a Judicial phrase and apply it where it doesn't fit. Law enforcement, and Due Process are two different things. They skipped that episode didn't they.

Wow, I finally read a post of yours that has a small amount of truth. The car, uniform, and equipment can be intimidating. Yes it is designed that way. Another episode they skipped. Our first level of FORCE used is what we call officer presence. We can get people to comply by just being there. Like when you crest over the hill and see the car on the side of the road everyone slams on the brakes. We didn't have to do anything to gain compliance. The fact that it's not fair for us to do our job makes you sound like 12 year old girl on a kick ball field. If your so worried about your rights being violated, you can take it upon yourself to go to law school. That when your stopped you won't need to call an attorney. When I was stopped for speeding and ticketed the officer didn't allow me to contact an attorney. That's unfair to me isn't it!

And last but not least, please cite your reference material that gave you the proven fact that police don't stop crime. The last time I checked the statistical research said the by police deterring crime, does not allow for a measurment of crime prevented. There is no base line to compare something that didn't happen. Do away with police in your city. You'll move in a month. 85% of the population does not need the Police to make them behave as normal people. The others need alot of help some time. So you just keep smoking your dope, burning your flags, protesting the government, and being that great contributor to your neighborhood. Just do us a favor and don't call us when the guy's inside your house with a gun. Hell if you don't wanna go in a get him, why should I! You don't think I wanna make it to race next weekend.

 

PAC MAN, you might as well forget trying to defend the cops. They suck and everone knows it. I'm sure the Nazi's were just misunderstood too. My own personal experiences with the law have never been good. It's always guilty until proven innocent. I don't dial 911! Mike

 

Its not just the letter of the law, its also the spirit of the law.

Pacman, lighten up. I didn't mount a personal attack against. you. My comment above was meant to show that demanding to search a house is totally unacceptable. However when it comes to a personal vehicle, then for some reason its okay.

Sure they can. They can make you sit at the side of the road for an hour, 2 hours until a 'drug dog' car shows up. They can question the insurance, run a check to make sure the vehicle isn't stolen (that can take a long time if its interstate),.... You know very well that people are not free to go.

Don't really watch tv much (not even sure what cis is), not really sure what your point is.

You said it, "FORCE". My point was that an officer is intentionally intimidating people into complying with their will. This is not true consent as far as I'm concerned.

How could a cop prevent a crime?? You can't arrest someone before the do something, can you? If your on a blind spot at the side of the road and I'm not speeding (unlikely but lets go with it), am I going to slam on my brakes? No. You presence only has an effect on those that are speeding.

Like I said Pacman, I'm not trying to attack you personally. I think that you have to accept that the police are not above being human. They make mistakes, they break rules,...They are not above reproach. Someone needs to watch them to make sure that their authority is not abused.

 

That's funny... I always thought it supposed to be the people that define the laws and regulations in a democracy, you know... with our duly elected officials and what not. That's why America is supposedly a Democracy, not a police state.

You can. If one calls and you tell them to put you on their "do not call" list, then they call you again, they have broken the law and can be fined. See, the people all got together and had a law passed to stop being harrased.

I believe that's called an 'analogy'. It's a pretty good one too.

I dunno what fairy land you live in PacMan, but that DOES happen where I live. Especially if you're not White, wearing nice clothes, and/or look "different" to the wonderful officer. In the 20 years I've lived in the D.C. area, I've been harassed by more police than I can count... for NO REASON. I'm a law abiding, upstanding citizen. Always have been. I'm even white... but have always been a non-conformist in some sense... Even now I don't wear fancy clothes and have been known not to shave for a few days at a time. I even only have *one* traffic conviction in 9 years (Speeding... N.C. tax collector got me). If you don't want your car searched, suddenly the traffic stop takes just a weeeee bit longer as the officer looks over the outside of the car... then goes back to the cruiser and talks more on the radio. And you're hosed. You will sit there. For as long as the officer seems to think you should. Because you didn't bow to his imagined authority over your life.

Did I mention I'd only had one traffic conviction in 9 years? Yet... I've had to sit in my car while this happened on at least 2 occasions in the same time period.
The last one was the best... I was written a ticket for "reckless driving" here in VA (something you do NOT want) by a cop that never saw my bike before reaching an intersection at which we were stopped. On *memorial day weekend*, a podunk sheriff called on the radio saying a "group of bikes were speeding and weaving through traffic in town". We happened to be the first group of bikes outside of town the patrol officer found. No descriptions of the bikes or riders was given... on a weekend where thousands of bikes are out in Northern VA backroads. 9 riders, 9 wreckless tickets, 30 minutes dealing with Officer jackass, $500 for a lawyer (each), then of course we had to take of work to go to court... where we beat the tickets (amazing how those radio logs can bite a cop in the ass, eh? That's how we found out there were no descriptions given). All for NO REASON. None of us were riding recklessly in town, and on the backroads we were doing at most, 10mph above the posted limit. When asked what we did wrong while he was writing tickets, the cop answered "You know what you were doing". Yeah... we interupted his donut break evidentally.

I have encountered a grand total of 3 police officers in the last 20 years that I found to be friendly, helpfull, and decent people.
I hope you're one of the few PacMan, because there's a whole lot of em that aren't worth squat.

- Roach


[This message has been edited by Roach (edited 07-20-2001).]