Brembo M4 vs Brembo OEMs ?

So I'm contemplating changing my ZX6R '13 calipers to the M4 Brembos.

Now my question is... Is it worth it first to do the swap ? and second: Any difference between the M4 vs the OEM from GSXs ?

Any valid info will be appreciated.

Thnx

 

M4's all day long, have them on my Aprilias. I replaced the OEM Brembos on my GSXR's with '09 GSXR 1000 monoblocks.

The damn nipples on the GSXR Brembos are behind the caliper. Hated that.

 

Thnx for the input... but just so I understand well. You changed OEM gixxer Brembo calipers for gixxers OEM Brembo calipers ??? Different model of Brembos from one generation to another ?

Thnx

 

Not exactly....I scrapped the GSXR OEM Brembos and put 09 GSXR 1000 TOKICO monoblocks.

Here is my '12 GSXR 600 that came with OEM Brembos, but I put the '09 GSXR 1000 OEM Tokico monoblocks on it.

Massive improvement over the stock brembos. I realize you have a ZX-6R but the only reason a lot of guys keep the OEM Brembos on GSXR's is for racing and the SS rules whereas they can't change the stock calipers/master cylinder....with WERA anyway.

 

ok... now I see.
So the OEM Brembos on the Gixxers are not monoblock I rather and the Tokico monoblocks are better.

So going back to the Brembo M4's, that would still be better then the OEM Chaotic is an idjit... Brembos.

I think I'll be going the M4 route.

Thnx buddy

Cheers
Alexv

 

The OEM Brembo calipers for GSXR are not monobloc, but that doesn't mean they're not good. Also, not all monoblocs are 'better' than non monobloc calipers of a different brand, size, etc. You have to take into account caliper stiffness, piston size, stiction/friction. M4s are no doubt very good calipers. But perhaps the best thing you can do is to change 1 thing at a time and find the result for yourself. Change only pads to something more in line with what you're looking for. If you're still desiring more feel, or some other characteristic, then change the master cylinder. I'd consider calipers the last thing to change in a braking system provided they're decent units and well serviced to begin with.

 

I thought monoblock meant not two piece calipers? The gsxr calipers are one piece.
I went from stock 2011 equipment to Braking rotors, to M4 calipers with stock MC, and this year will be using the brembo 19x18 mc.

I thought the braking effort was more consistent with the M4 calipers, the OEM mc lever travel was more than I would like with the m4 calipers. Nothing has been extraordinarily transforming though...

 

Actually, now that I look at them, you're right. They are in fact 1 piece (monobloc) design. Sorry for spreading misinformation. The M4 calipers I'm sure are a more optimized design, with improvements in stiffness and weight and friction. But again, I'd spend my money on the master cylinder first.

Regarding your complaint with lever travel. If you feel the lever travel was too much with a given setup, try moving to a master cylinder with a larger fulcrum (20mm vs 18mm for instance) or a SMALLER bore size (say 16mm vs 19mm). If you're not certain of exactly the feel you're going to prefer, try the RCS19 master cylinder. The fulcrum is adjustable from 18 to 20mm which makes a big difference in lever travel to stopping power ratio.

 

Wouldnt that be a LARGER bore to move more fluid for less lever travel?

 

Thnx for the input... but I have already changed pretty much everything concerning braking, except for calipers and rotors.

M/C is a RCS19, SS brake lines with splitter and SBS DC brake pads.
Want more braking power, with out forcing with my hand (I get arm pump)

A shame that the new 636 has thinner rotors. The '09-'12 rotors stopped better.

And yes a one piece caliper is a monoblock (which are also the case with the OEM ZX636 Nissin calipers) Reason why I was asking Brembo M4 vs Brembo OEM (Gixxer) vs ZX636 OEM Nissins.

I can't really afford the billet ones... Sweet but expensive !

 

Good to hear you've tried the easy stuff first. Not to come off all preachy, but for those that don't know : If you want more braking power (more friction without exerting more force on the lever) there's only a few ways to do this.

• 1st and easiest if you have an RCS m/c is to change the fulcrum from 18 to 20mm. This will increase the mechanical advantage the lever has on the m/c piston and will give you more stopping power without requiring any more force from your hand.
• 2nd would be changing to a pad with a higher friction coefficient. Higher the coefficient, the more grab the pads will have for a given force applied to them.
• 3rd would be changing to a larger brake disc (i.e 310mm to 320mm). The larger diameter gives the caliper larger mechanical advantage and more stopping power per pound of force you apply to the lever.
• 4th would be changing the disc to a material with higher friction coefficient (iron). This will require a pad change, but will provide better stopping power for the same reason #2 will.
• 5th would be changing the master cylinder to a unit with the same or longer piston fulcrum with a smaller bore. The smaller bore will apply more pressure on the fluid and caliper pistons without requiring anymore force from your hand.
• 6th and lastly - if your lack of stopping power isn't coming from ANY of the items above, a stiffer caliper that is flexing less will allow more of the piston's force to be applied to the disc and tire resulting in more stopping power

I'm only stressing this because calipers really don't make any difference in stopping power provided they have the same size pistons as the ones you're replacing. The reduced friction of the pistons of fancy calipers does mean more of the brake force applied gets to the pads instead of moving the pistons, but it's marginal compared to the above list. As an aside, the thicker or thinner rotors don't have any bearing on stopping power. The thickness will only change the thermal capacity of the discs and effect the heat transfer of the discs to the hubs/wheel/air/etc. This would effect how long the brakes would have X amount of stopping power before the temperature exceeds the working range of the components and the brakes begin to fade.

 

I'm gonna have to question this one... surface area is irrelevant when it comes to frictional force. If you're using the same rotor material and same pad material more surface area should make zero difference, other than in thermal dissipation or other properties.

 

The larger rotor also has different thermal capacity and dissipation properties as you’ve mentioned. But for the sake of stopping power, the larger rotor has a longer lever on the wheel and therefore applies more torque to the wheel with a given brake pressure.

Imagine a changing your discs to 80mm diameter discs. It would require 4x the braking force onto the rotors to stop the wheel than if you had 320mm rotors. Torque = Force x Distance.


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You are incorrect also about the lever ratio. #1. Increasing the lever arm, decreases the force at the master cylinder but reduces lever travel.
It is stated incorrectly in several places, that 19 x 20 gives you more power. https://www.oppracing.com/pages/articles_brembo_master_cylinders/
The 19 x 18 gives you more force at the master at the expense of increased lever travel.

Most of the time though, it's a consistency and feel at the lever you want more so than outright power of braking.

 

Whoops. Good catch! You’re right. I meant switch from 20mm to 18mm!! Weird that OPP also has it incorrect. The 18mm or 20mm distance is the distance from the lever pin to the fulcrum (plunger). So the closer to that fulcrum the pin is (18mm) the less force is required. The 20mm distance will require harder pull from the hand to net the same force on the plunger because of reduced mechanical advantage.


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@nlzmo400r thank you for all that input.
Puts many things in perspective for what I need to do and where to go.

Cheers

 

Absolutely. But the larger bore m/c will apply less hydraulic pressure per lb of force on the lever. So while the larger bore m/c will have less lever travel, it'll require more force from the hand. The smaller bore will give the opposite effect. The lever will travel farther because less fluid is being displaced, but more pressure will be exerted onto the caliper pistons with the same amount of force from the hand.

I would suggest a smaller bore master for someone who wants more braking force without wanting to squeeze the lever harder.

 

So a 16 m/c would be the way to go !?

 

Before you go changing to a different master cylinder, try the other easier options first (different pads etc). It's generally recommended for dual 4 piston calipers to use 19mm bore master cylinder. But this also depends on the size of the pistons and what YOU want the brakes to feel like. For example, R6s and R1s come stock with 16mm master cylinder bores despite them having dual 4 piston calipers.

What size pistons are in the stock calipers?

 

Try looking for the piston size on Google and not finding anything.
Will check it when I get in the garage.

I think I'll stick with the RCS19 and leave things as is.... and see later on for, maybe, rotors 320mm.