Fighting global warming!

Kind of like politics.

 

That was a good read, thanks.

 

The sum total of our personality and life experience quite probably conditions us to a point in which we really would always make the same choice given the same options. If you know someone well enough, you can almost always predict what their reaction to any given circumstance will be, even without omniscience. There it is. I've convinced myself that free will is simply a fantasy. That thing I did in high school was not my fault.

 

I suspect that religion may have evolved into a sort of power trip however, I think, for the most part, it's people still hanging onto the belief in different "gods" because they haven't learned not to. In the beginning people believed in all sorts of gods because that was who they could blame for things that happened that they couldn't explain. But, that's just me.

 

I'm not confused. A (man) is not controlled by B (God) if you can remove B from the equation and not affect A in any way.
Whether God knows or doesn't know what will happen, he is not causing it to happen, therefore free will.

 

If you remove an all knowing God from the equation, then free will becomes possible. If you put him back in and he has known for all eternity that your actions will lead you inexorably to damnation, then you are just a marionette playing a bit part in his grand creation. You can not possibly deviate from the path he has seen for you. Free will is a cosmic joke.

 

That argument makes no sense... If I remove the plywood from the second door in my example A still reacts the same way with the same feelings, that doesn't mean it doesn't fundamentally alter the situation.

I'm guessing we're not going to resolve this, but what it comes down to is, if it is KNOWN what choice you make, you don't really have a choice... You definitely think that you do, thus the illusion of free will... If it is KNOWN what you're going to chose then you fundamentally do not have a choice. You only have the option that has already been determined.

 

I don't think that free will is incompatible with all-knowing God. It's just a steroid-enhanced version of me having a really good batting average on making predictions on things people will say in here. It doesn't prove they don't have free will. It just shows I have accumulated enough data on them to make a prediction. An all-knowing God would have the mother of all databases.

What is not compatible is "all-knowing" and "loving." If you know what Pol Pot is going to do and you allow him to be born, can you really claim that you love mankind? I say "no."

 

again, being "really good" at predicting something, and "knowing" are two very different concepts.

 

Well, I'm not God. That's the difference between batting .800 and batting 1.000.

 

If God knows your choices, created you and "knows/loves" you as is espoused - every single murderer or rapist or otherwise damned individual was a flawed creation God allowed to be unleashed into the world.

Can't talk about the concept of free will and choice existing when existence in and of itself is God's creation. You can't create it all and know it all then throw your hands up when what you knew would happen happens. As my cajun baby mama would say "that's all you boo, own it".

 

LOL.....I can't wrap my head around the 'how and why' a Superior being knowing what we will choose has any affect on the decision itself?

So when we (common folk) just KNOW how someone in our lives will make a given decision (you know because we might know them so well)........you're saying their decision was somehow influenced by us knowing what they'd choose????

Seriously, how do you guys make sense of this???

On a side note, this debate is nothing new, I'm almost positive it was Papa and I (amongst others obviously) engaged in this very debate....gosh, it has to be at least a decade ago, maybe more.

 

An omniscient God doesn't have to predict anything. He knows, absolutely, every single thing you will ever do in your life, and has known since before the universe existed. The sum total of his creation and the way that you interact with it guarantee that every choice you make is preordained. You simply can't violate your divine programming. Before you answer me, or even choose not to, bear in mind that he has already seen your reaction. You will do exactly what he knows you will do. There is no escape.

 

Except you don't KNOW what someone in your life is going to choose... You can make a really good prediction, that is likely right, but you can't KNOW...

If god "KNOWS" what you're going to decide, the outcome of your decision is already determined, whether you think you're making the decision or not...

I'm not sure what you guys aren't seeing here.... If you're allowed a choice then no one can KNOW what you're going to choose with 100% accuracy, otherwise you're not really choosing... In small groupings of decisions, sure, someone could predict someone elses choices with pretty good accuracy, but if god knows with 100% accuracy every single decision you'll ever make, you don't have a choice in any of them, there's only one option, the one that god knows you're going to pick...

I'm not sure how else to explain it... It's like beating my head against the wall.

 

I tried to lay it out as succinctly as possible - the key variable IMO is that God is also responsible for human life. A child is a blessing from God. Well, congrats Mom and Dad, God just blessed you with what he knows to be a demon child who will ultimately earn a ticket to hell. Enjoy!

 

I find this discussion interesting only from the standpoint of the created trying to assign limitations to a creator based upon their perspective and rules.

 

Cmon dude, I'm not arguing the merits or accuracy of us regular folk taking a stab at someone we love making a decision on something and getting it right, we're NOT God. You're going to sit there and say you've NEVER made an educated guess on the outcome of something BEFORE it happened? I'd bet you have and I'm quite certain it didn't have any effect on it either.

I just find it mildly amusing that the all knowing atheists, in here, seem to KNOW more about God and His thoughts, capabilities and decision making abilities. It's astonishing really, I'm learning more and more about what He can do right here from WERA than I can recall going to church.....Amazing stuff I tell ya!

 

God already knew you were going to say that, and you did.

 

Again, I'm not sure how that's relevant to the topic at hand

I'm making no claims about knowing what god does or doesn't do or is capable of... All I'm saying is that omnipotence and free will are contradictory.... If you told me Mongo was omnipotent I'd make the same claim...