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"Gender Equality"

Discussion in 'The Dungeon' started by dtalbott, Mar 17, 2017.

  1. Fonda Dix

    Fonda Dix Well-Known Member

  2. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

    Then those women don't get to do that job - just as men who can't hit the numbers shouldn't be in that job. Ignore the sex and look only at ability.

    I agree with the women being drafted thing too. No reason they shouldn't be.
     
  3. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

  4. wmhjr

    wmhjr Well-Known Member

    Obviously, you never spent a day (as very few people have) in a Ranger Bn. The issue isn't about just ability - it's about unit cohesion and training. Again - until our culture actually allows women to be treated EXACTLY like men in every respect, it is counter-productive. And in such units, btw, men who can't perform aren't allowed in those jobs. Same thing goes for SF, SEALS , etc. Even in units like rifle battalions of the 82nd, 101st, etc. Force Recon in the marines.

    Or a better way to put it - you can't ignore the sex ONLY FOR QUALIFICATION and not ignore it in training, privacy, living arrangements, etc. There is no privacy in an overwatch position. I'm reasonable confident that there are women who would be fine with that. I have way too much experience to believe that our citizens, our government or our military hierarchy would be. Just EXACTLY like how the 3 women who made it through Ranger School actually made it - which is completely different than how men had to do it.
     
  5. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

    I don't disagree with you on the unit cohesion aspect and privacy etc... I was just responding to Orvis on the physical.

    On all the rest I think the people involved are going to have to change their expectations. The women aren't going to get privacy, the men aren't either. Cultural norms can and do change all the time - and this is one that can change. Yes it'll take time and the current steps allowing more women in combat roles as has happened in Iraq with convoys and so on is already night and day over how things were in WWII or Korea or even Vietnam.

    And I totally agree there are soldiers who could deal with it but the command structure and the public couldn't.
     
  6. wmhjr

    wmhjr Well-Known Member

    Mongo, you and I more or less agree with this.

    The one thing that I don't agree with is this. I have in fact completed this school, and served in some of these units. Spent a long time in the Army. Over history, one thing has not changed. That is, the basic makeup of small combat arms units across the world - not just in this country. The culture inside of those small units. There is also a very massive misconception of women not being around combat theaters in WWII or Korea. That just isn't true either. Women have always been around combat. What is different is about the role when they are there.

    This is NOT in any way some sort of slight on women. I've known a lot of very tough women. It's about what makes a (very) small tactical unit work best. First of all, that requires training that is as close is possible to actual operational conditions. It's about deploying lethal weapons systems that are defined and engineered for maximum effectiveness - which often means size/weight compromises when compared to lethality, range, etc. We don't build combat fighter aircraft that a guy that is over 77 inches tall.

    Anyway, it doesn't matter. The politicians and the liberal zealots are going to continue to push, under a terrible mistaken belief that the military is supposed to be a reflection of society. It is not. It is supposed to achieve maximum lethality at minimal cost while observing appropriate rules of war and host nation agreements.
     
  7. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

    We totally agree on everything other than possibly I think it can change (albeit I think it'll take a long long time) and you're less than optimistic :D
     
  8. CausticYarn

    CausticYarn Well-Known Member

    So why can't there be all female units? Serious question.

    I don't see an issue with women in combat as long as they can pass at the same standards...and we really haven't seen that at all.

    As for the draft: as long as they have protections for not taking both parents from the kids, I am okay with that too.

    It must piss off the transgender female crowd that they are still required to register for SSS, when transgender males are not.

    ++ that Dern and I are too old to register :)
     
  9. Robby-Bobby

    Robby-Bobby Steeltoe’s Daddy


    All female units for what? Active combat? Is this a serious question before I give my answer?
     
  10. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

    Sounds like a good question to me - if the issue is combat units being mixed because of things like shit/shower/shaving then make some of just chicks if they meet the requirements.
     
  11. In Your Corner

    In Your Corner Dungeonesque Crab AI Version

    How about an all-female NFL team? Does anybody really think they wouldn't get creamed?
    And that's just a game.
     
  12. CausticYarn

    CausticYarn Well-Known Member

    I wrote that it was a serious question.


    Because I get it. I seriously do. I love being a firefighter. I love the adrenaline dump, I love the smell after leaving a fire, I love serving my community, I love saving lives - but I completely understand the trepidation.

    You should try to see the guys run fire drills and rescue scenarios with me in the mix. They are uncomfortable. If shit hit the fan and they had to grab me by the short and curlies to pitch me out a window, it would happen. But damn is it hard for them to stop seeing me as a pending sexual assault case. It's awkward in some cases and works better if I just watch in others. But fuck if I can't get myself in smaller places with the hose than some of those tubbies. Need someone to get through a 2x16 hole in the wall fully packed up? I am the one going in.
     
  13. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator


    No, I don't think they would get creamed if they were all physically the same with the same skills and training as a male team.
     
  14. crashman

    crashman Grumpy old man

    I think most agree with this as long as they can keep the SJW's from going in and fucking with said requirements in the name of fairness and diversity. There should be requirements in place and none of the peripheral bullshit should matter if the person meets said requirements.
     
  15. 600 dbl are

    600 dbl are Shake Zoola the mic rula

    I seem to remember reading an article about that. They put an all female unit against an all male OPFOR unit. IIRC things did not go well for the all female unit.

    Here's an interesting article to start with though

    http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...all-male-combat-units-faster-than-mixed-units

    Edit:

    I don't think this was the article, but here was another MC study

    https://qz.com/499618/the-us-marine...mixed-gender-ones-and-the-men-came-out-ahead/
     
  16. brex

    brex Well-Known Member

    What if you shaved, would it have to be bowling ball style?
     
    CausticYarn likes this.
  17. HPPT

    HPPT !!!

    CausticYarn likes this.
  18. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

    Absolutely - and they need to stop loosening the requirements for the males too. Lazy fatasses like me do not deserve to do certain things.
     
    V5 Racer likes this.
  19. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

    No surprise at all in those studies - I agree with WMH that the males aren't ready to treat the women like they're just another soldier. That will affect performance.
     
  20. CausticYarn

    CausticYarn Well-Known Member

    That was so good I almost wet my pants.
     
    brex likes this.

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