Mongo, i know a fellow racer asked this in person and i heard it was shut down. I'd like to discuss as the verbiage sort of takes away the purpose of having vintage classes: Because of Suzuki's lack of updating their bike since 2011, a 2025 GSXR can run in V8 races. And with Superbike rules, this would allow fully built MotoAmerica bikes to run V8 classes. From my understanding, the Vintage classes were designed for us ancient bike owners to stay competitive within each other. Allowing brand new GSXR 600/750's, or 2016 R6's in a vintage class seems a bit unfair. If you look at the grids, most bikes tend to be around 2006 models. ARHMA and CCS have year deadlines for what they allow in their vintage classes. AHRMA - 2005 CCS - 2006 is there any reason why the rulebook is written the way it is, and not similar to other club orgs?
As a V8 rider, I'd definitely like to see a hard cut off for date of manufacturing. Vintage means Vintage. Not brand new.
Whats the physical age have to do with anything if the bikes are 100% the same? As for in person and shut down - no clue what you're talking about. With regard to a 2025 - it would have to be literally 100% the exact same down to every nut and bolt on the stock bike. Why did I write it that way? Because it makes sense, the other clubs haven't been running a vintage class like that since well after I made v8 so not really caring what their rules are. Might want to ask them why they don't follow our example....
My biggest issue with how the current 12 year rule is written is now we are getting into frames being eligible that have electronics. A few years back and when your rules were written, that wasn't an issue. Now, we are getting into apples and orange's being in V8 with pre electronic bikes racing bikes with all the goodies.
technically not, as it's A Superbike rules. essentially someone could get a 2025 world super sport GSXR (ridiculous i know) and enter it in Vintage 8. the majority of the V8 riders are using bikes around 2006. other race orgs have a year cut off around that year as well. that's what makes sense when you think modern vintage. with suzuki not changing the GSXR 600/750 since 2011, brand new bikes can race vintage which seems wrong. a 2025 GSX-R 600/750 and 2016 R6 shouldnt be considered a vintage bike, regardless that it's the same machine since 2011.
Um, technically yes since I know what I wrote Still not answering WHY a 2025 that is 100% the same as a 2012 shouldn't be legal. And 2006 has nothing to do with anything since that is 6 years older than the cutoff...
That does not appear to be true, based on the existing rules. When I took a quick look at the most basic specs of a 2013 GSXR 1000 and compared them to a current Spec GSXR 1000, there are differences in published Hp, wheelbase and wet weight. There appears to have been a change for the 2017 model year. Those differences clearly indicate that they are not 100% identical except for graphics, so any GSXR 1000 newer than 2016 would not be legal for V8. There also appears to have been a switch to ride by wire at some point. Given that V8 is run under superbike rules, a 2013 could be upgraded to use later model parts with the 2013 frame, but that has always been the case and is nothing new.
It also appears, according to Wikipedia, that there were some small changes in the 600 between 2014 and 2015. A small drop in compression, an increase in torque, a decrease in length, and an increase in width and height. None of those changes can be accomplished with just graphics. The GSXR750 appears unchanged. If I were in charge of tech, current GSXR 600s and 1000s would not be legal for V8 and a 750 would be. There are only minor differences, the letter of the rules is very definitive and precludes the use of frames later than 2015 for the 1000 and 2014 for the 600.
It's up to the rider to prove they're legal if protested if y'all are actually upset about differences between year models.
So @DBConz , it seems as though you would want the V8 class to stop "sliding" and make a hard cutoff (i.e. 2007) and create a new "sliding" vintage class (V9), is that correct? ^This is what I would recommend. Or if you're concerned about electronics and such there could be an additional rule change to ban certain types of electionic packages. I agree with @Mongo that it makes perfect sense that a 2025 GSXR600 could compete in vintage if everything is the same given the current V8 rules. It's the same as building a GSXR600 using 2025 parts and a 2011 frame but a little less work perhaps.
the vintage classes throughout other race orgs seem to have a cut off, which makes things fair and simple to follow. i get that Suzuki hasnt made any changes to their bikes since 2011, so it's technically the same bike. in my mind when you think modern vintage, you think about outdates bikes that are no longer competitive with what's new. i would prefer a year cutoff, but at minimum remove the rule about "exact same mode of a newer year but unchanged". regardless that the GSXR 600/750 is the same as 2011. if that VIN is not 12+ years older, it's not vintage.
If it's the same bike, what's unfair about it? And calling out a MA built next gen superbike 750 as a cheater is kinda weird given MA spec nerfs them in the name of balancing against the benchmark R6? Yeah, they'll likely have all the suspension, but all that will bolt onto a 2011 as well. A full superbikey build should have the same level of suspension AND motor on the MA build. Look at USCRA and AHRMA rules, they all have language about "Like models" in their classes, and those are full vintage orgs.
I disagree with Sean on a number of things but I agree with him and I'm failing to see the real world issue here. Having raced plenty of V8 races myself a few years ago, I also feel I've gridded up in the very class to have an opinion on it. The grid and purpose of the V8 class is a conglomerate of 3 things: - Rider ability - Rider's budget - Bike generation capability There was a lot of bitches, moans and complaints when the 06 R6 was going to be eligible and how it was going to turn into a R6 cup and it was going to make Rossi's out of everybody and nobody on anything other than a R6 would stand a chance. Then nothing happened, and then when the 08 was legal, the same thing. And nothing changed. But the irony of the R6 specifically is that the 08-09 airboxes/stacks are better than the 2010+. But now the 2010 is legal, therefore the 2016 is as well...although a 2016 is already 8 years old, if you weren't feeling old enough already. V8 is already a mixture of novices and experts anyways, so let's be real, if you're not a somewhat seasoned racer, you're likely not going to win it. And the average V8 winner is a mid pack expert racer in the 600/1000 class. What I'm saying is that nobody that's riding a 2025 gixxer gives a hoot about racing V8, they're going to be racing in the 600/750/1000 class. Who gives a fuck about some minor HP difference in motors in a gixxer over the years - V8 is Superbike rules anyways, so there's absolutely nothing to stop a racer from putting in a "newer and faster motor" into an old frame. That argument holds no real world merit. I don't think any of us would pick a 2004 gixxer over a 2011, no argument there. But if the 2011 is good and nothing changed, then the sliding year rule makes sense. And dare I venture to say that even if you're running a '04 gixxer, your competition on a 2011 (or 2025 for that matter) is not the reason you're only running 1:45's at Road Atlanta. That's your rider ability holding you back, not your competition. If the V8 fills up with 2025 gixxer's overnight for the next 2 years...maybe Sean will have a legitimate reason to reevaluate the rule book. Otherwise, quit complaining and go race.
It was two different 2025(?) GSXR750 MotoA bikes that won both V8HW classes at Mid-Ohio Vintage days.
And anybody with the budget could have built a 2013 750 to those exact same specs and been legal. Maybe it was talent rather than the bike that won at Mid -O.
That doesn't appear to be true, see post 10, except for the 750. Repeating it in multiple posts still won't make true.
