MotoGP | 2025 | Race 7 | Silverstone | British Grandprix | May-23 to May-25

Just finished the Moto2 race. My heart rate was higher watching that battle than it is battling on track myself. Kinda bummed to see Canet hung out to dry. I don't think I've ever seen someone so committed to toughing it out in so many corners.

 

Of course Marc never had a 24. Pramac did as I said above. When Marc showed up in the garage they had already built the 25. I love how it’s Marc fault it’s not a step from the 24 when he had zero input into the development of the bike as it was a progression from a bike he was never on.
As far as testing, Pecco has said he has never had a teammate who gave the same feedback like Marc…. And Pecco has bitched non stop about the front end.
So because Marc hasn’t publicly complained about it, you jump to the conclusion that the bike is being developed badly around Marc. Am I getting all of this correct before I start laughing?

 

I am just going off history at Honda, he was the lead rider there and making the decisions,lets look ow that turned out.

when the choice came down to the what to do with the 25, Peco never liked the 25 and openly has asked to go back to the 24...MM was said to have liked the 25 more than the 23 and Peco did not have trouble with the front end of the 23 at least it was never reported and he never complained. So, I am surmising that the choice between the 25 and the 24 came down to MM choosing it, cuz we kinda know that was not Peco's choice.

 

If you crash your bike after the green flag, and there is a red flag for whatever reason... If they allow you to restart, your ass should be at the back of the grid. Your fault or not.... That whole situation sucked and ruined the race IMO. All those MFers should have been back of grid. Stupid rule that of course MM93 capitalized on (to no fault of his, rules are rules) but should change immediately.

Poor Fabio, huge fan and Yamaha fan. Was hard to watch. His confidence should continue to show for the rest of the season, even if it is on qualifying only.

Jorge Martin should STFU and just ride that prilia when he gets healthy. Known for being a whiner. Staying true to form. Wow. Shut up and finish your contract.

I am not a MM93 fan.. So seeing him get a pass this weekend sucked. He is an amazing rider, but got away with one. The comments on X were pretty ruthless. Rightfully so. But whatever. He is the MotoGP star. He caught a break.

Was nice to see Ducati struggle. But dont blink on Marc, he will be dominating next race.

Pecco is so overrated.

 

Lets say you were an engineer at a motorcycle manufacturer tasked with developing a motorcycle capable of going around a racetrack as fast as possible, under a given set of rules. You come up with a design element or widget that would take 1 or 2 tenths off your lap time per lap. The only problem you have with your big idea is its going to take an exceptional rider to take advantage of it. Now lets also say that you have Marc Marquez in your team. Its no surprise that Ducati decided the smart play was to build the bike that is capable of the fastest lap times possible, and let that exceptional rider go win races.

 

I remember reading an article recently (I can't find it now, of course!) that presented a trend of development at Ducati over the past 3+ years that yielded a decline in front end feel on an otherwise sweet turning and hard accelerating machine.

Then in 2024 you put Marc Marquez, a guy whose recent history was maximizing corner entry on the front tire of a bike that didn't turn (the 2023 Honda) on the 2023 Ducati (which had more front end feel than the 2024 Ducati).

The predictable outcome happened: Marc used his experience to get the most out of the front end feel of a bike that was likely better than the front end feel of the 2024 Ducati at the time.

Now put that same rider on a bike that is 2 years further down the development curve with declining front end feel and you have what you have today. I don't think this is rocket surgery. I think this is water finding its level. Marc is having the same problems Pecco and the rest of the Ducatis are over the longer timeline.

-Tom

 

Horrifically wrong. If I recall correctly, this was the year Pecco very publicly stated Ducati needed to stop giving him test parts before they were thoroughly vetted by other riders. Something to effect of his job is the ride a well developed bike to race wins and championships, not be a test rider. The start of 23 was a disaster for him with 3 out of the first 5 races being DNFs or finished outside the points. I believe it's been pretty well accepted at this point the 23 was more of a step back than step forward compared to the 22 and the 24 was more of an actual progression.

 

I don't think you're ever going to find an article, or anything else for that matter, that says the 23 had more front end feel than the 24. I think the 23 is considered a pretty mediocre bike at the beginning. With development the 23 got better, but that's not the bike Marc had.

None of that changes what the job of the designer is though, and that's to take the available resources within the rules package, and make a bike that can make it around the racetrack the fastest. If that bike requires an exceptional rider to exploit that, and you have that rider, you build that bike and win those races.

 

So Ducati are reverting to the post 2007 years when the riders kept losing the front end?

 

Correct. I think he took out the 24 in the morning on the first day of post-season testing at Jerez, but he's never raced it.

The GP23's problems started with new tire in 2024. They heard the bike dialed in by the end of 2023.

 

Thanks for the correction. My bad.

Either way, I still think there's that the previous gen Ducatis (even the '23 which was allegedly not as good as the '24) was more consistent than the new bike. In the hands of the same rider. Not an air tight analysis, but point to something being off with the '25 bike.

A recent The Race article has a few quotes from Pecco about lack of front end feel on the '25 and what I would interpret as stability on corner entry. It seems like none of the guys liked the '25 engine, but the frame was built to accept the '25 engine architecture and mounting points. And with the engine freeze, they're stuck with it until '27.

IMHO this is a design philosophy preference. Personally, as a developer and engineer, I would not pursue this path because to me it means building in a performance and operational constraint into the product. In my view, this narrows the product's performance envelope and limits its user audience which then lowers its probability of victory or commercial success. On an episode of Oxley Bom, Livio Suppo shared this philosophy and it is why he hired Nicky Hayden to balance out Stoner's input. Suppo recognized that Stoner was a generational talent and because of that the bike couldn't be his bike. Therefore, if Nicky could go fast on the bike, then the factory wouldn't have to rely on a generation talent to win on their product.

Ducati has always designed with more of a rear tire bias than other factories. This is why the Ducati is fastest when it is going in a straight line and not crossed up under the brakes like the other brands. If they've continued to design to this bias then we could suppose that they'd reach a point of diminishing return where they'd start losing front end feel. Perhaps that's where they've arrived this season?

 

Here's my conspiracy theory.

Back in early 23 pecco and the other 23 riders had a lot of problems and pecco even made a comment that the he kept crashing because the bike was "too good" and the front gave no warning when it was going to let go. They fixed it mid season and the 23 kicked ass.

Following year Marc is riding the crappy version of the 23 and doing quite well. Ducati knows their new 25 is a pile of crap, similar to the early 23, so they had no choice but to signup Marc because based on his 23 data he's the only one who can ride it.

 

Yes. '25 Ducatis are just piles of shit...

 

Now THAT's a theory

 

Why are we acting like the '25 bike being raced is so different? They are all on '24s, with Marc and Bagnaia having very slight differences. They tossed what was supposed to be the '25 to the side in pre-season testing because there was too much to sort out.
Same base '24 engine and frame, with the factory guys getting a slightly different swingarm and some aero bits. How does that translate into the '25 is a completely different bike, totally designed by Marc, and is a pile of garbage with no front-end feel?

 

Read the article here:

 

https://oxleybom.buzzsprout.com/2181509/episodes/17222934-silverstone-2025-must-be-opposite-day
On this episode of Oxley Bom, Matt Oxley stated that Bagnaia said he was unable to feel the difference between the soft and the medium tire at Silverstone. A rider at his level should be able to, so that sounds like a problem with a numb front end for sure.

 

I wonder if Gigi is on the Beeb? I am sure he could use the wisdom and insight that is being presented here.

 

Nice conjecture with absolutely zero fact.
They can say it seems the engine is different all they want, it doesn't mean anything. What about the same website's articles, along with everyone else, saying that Ducati scrapped the '25 engine, and all were using the same base? What about Ducati personnel themselves saying they were all using the '24?
So because one website, that is no better than any other, posts an article with their own conjecture, it's canon? Sure Jan.

Maybe Bagnaia is having front end problems because he no longer has the far superior bike to the rest of the field and has to push above his abilities. Maybe if the Marquez brothers had '24 bikes last year, Bagnaia would have been in the exact same situation he is today.

Nah, it has to be some super-secret, super-special internal components in a sealed engine that have a magic quality to them where it only works when Marc is riding it. Yep, that is the ONLY plausible explanation.

The ride height device? Sure, that is the cause of all the issues then. Because he certainly isn't allowed to swap back. Ever. No way.

Couldn't possibly be the rider.

 

Well it would seem that the guys at Ducati like Dall'ignia, Tardozzi, and Domenicali think otherwise. I bet they made the most objective and informed decision they could based on the best information they had. That information that influenced their decisions is probably information that isn't available to most.

I also disagree that this design philosophy is building in a "performance constraint" at all. It's eliminating constraints, it just takes a generational talent to extract that performance. It just so happens that they have that guy, so they've decided to use him. I know he's kind of a golden cow around here, but how many races did Nicky win on that bike? If you want everybody to be able to ride it, hell design it so I can win on it. These bikes are cutting edge kinda things being ridden by cutting edge kind of riders. Take every advantage every time you can and go win races and championships.