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Legit electric car question

Discussion in 'General' started by Bugslayer, Jul 13, 2023.

  1. gixxerboy55

    gixxerboy55 Well-Known Member

    Yeah gas car's catch fire more on the road, but they don't catch fire sitting in the garage, and burn your house down.
     
  2. pickled egg

    pickled egg Well-Known Member

    It’s remarkable how much evangelists dissuade people from their message…
     
    969, A. Barrister, brex and 1 other person like this.
  3. auminer

    auminer Renaissance Redneck

    Yeah!

    Those confounded horseless carriages will NEVER catch on!!!

    :D
     
    Once a Wanker.. and cu260r6 like this.
  4. pickled egg

    pickled egg Well-Known Member

    But will they catch fire?
     
  5. Kurlon

    Kurlon Well-Known Member

    It's been determined that Jeep 4XEs absolutely CAN spontaneously combust due to a mfg fault in the battery pack. Unplugged, minding it's own business, FOOOMF! The current belief is discharged packs are less likely to do the bad thing, and Jeep still thinks they can spot bad packs with just one more software update so instead of replacements or buybacks for all of us, it's a 2nd round of no charge, no park near anything you like for months to await a fresh software update recall...

    Now, as to your specific commentary, phones do in fact have full BMS setups, usually with multiple thermal probes to assist. This has been the norm for a LONG time, it's been available as a single chip solution for a range of cell sizes for over a decade now so literally individual cent or two to integrate. Hell, that disposable vape floating down the side of the road on it's way to the ocean likely has a BMS for it's single tiny lipo pouch.

    And all this bellyaching about 'badly connected chargers' is well, BS. All a level 1 or level 2 charger is, is an extension cord with a dumb bit that can play with resistance on the signaling pin to indicate available amperage. You can present 240v 500A to a car, it'll only actually tie on and draw if the signaling is valid and then it'll only draw up to what the signaling advertises, and that's if the car's onboard charger (that's where the brains are, they aren't in your JuiceBox) likes what it sees for voltage, wiring, ground, temps, batt state, voltage sag under load, etc. Anything out of range, they just disconnect the contactors. If you've got a car that's level 1 only and you plug in your house powered 240 arcmaster 3000, you'll maybe pop the charger if the safeties don't balk first and refuse to connect. If an issue occurs, it was the car's charger that allowed it to happen, not the expensive extension cord.

    Batteries can become damaged through all sorts of various means, electrical or mechanical, and the bad thing often doesn't happen at the moment the damage occurs, it can take time to reach the tipping point, and that point can be reached while your car is parked, not charging, minding it's own business in your garage.

    EVs are not risk free, no car is. They present a different set of risks, being aware of them is not spreading misinformation or paranoia.
     
    MELK-MAN, quikie, JBall and 3 others like this.
  6. Boman Forklift

    Boman Forklift Well-Known Member

    This sounds very logical and well informed. Do you work in the battery or charger industry?

    Hopefully I’m never on here regretting this comment. We currently charge my wife’s electric car which sits between my Lotus and Tyler’s M5. I care about both those gas cars way more than the electric, and I’m not too concerned our house is going to burn down from any of that. Probably more likely from the gas cans I have in the garage, or the natural gas powered water heater and furnace.
     
    brex likes this.
  7. StaccatoFan

    StaccatoFan Our National Nightmare is over

    It will be fun to watch you all burn cash as Gov Lizard implements the mileage tax.
     
    969 likes this.
  8. Kurlon

    Kurlon Well-Known Member

    Nope, just a PHEV owner who's been deep diving the tech on his own 'cause Jeep seems to have botched some of it... Differences between CCS and Tesla's now NACS branded setup makes for a really interesting read. Vehicles that support DC fast charging have even more protections than AC only ones, though with NACS they share pins so if the contactors are triggered incorrectly... sparky sparky fun.
     
    Boman Forklift likes this.
  9. cu260r6

    cu260r6 Well-Known Member

    The Jeeps were hybrids, not EVs, had bad chemistry/manufacturing quality control, and were recalled. Once fixed, there is no risk. Also, Jeep makes about .01% of all EV's, so again, anecdotal evidence is not indicative of statistical risk.
     
  10. Kurlon

    Kurlon Well-Known Member

    So, the recall doesn't automatically result in changing the battery. Also, the replacement battery is the same tech and chemistry, with revised internal support structures. The failure is believed to be due to a physical issue, not BMS / Chemical failure.

    The recall changes the software in the BMS, adjusting it to look for hints of a failing battery pack in it's output, to then throw a code. During the recall process the firmware is updated, then the battery is run through a full charge cycle. If it trips a code then, the battery is swapped, if it doesn't, you're sent on your way. A few people did end up tripping the code during the recall test, but not many.

    Down the line, the theory is the firmware will spot impending doom prior to flame on, and throw a check engine light, alerting the driver who will dutifully take their Jeep in to service, and the battery will be replaced.

    What happened instead, some people did get the code post recall. Not all got batteries, STAR would pitch a fit if the code wasn't active at the time the vehicle was in for service, because for some reason Jeep didn't flag it as a permanent code. Some people have just ignored check engine lights, and we know at least 13 vehicles caught fire post recall but details on their specific circumstances haven't been released. We do have confirmation of two fires pre recall that were Jeeps just sitting, not plugged in, not involved in accidents/etc prior that decided to go up spontaneously.

    So now, a year later, we're under a second recall covering even more 4XEs, also including those that got 'fixed' by the first recall. I'm in that group. (Also worth noting Pacifica 4XEs which share the batt pack are going through the same pain.) Again, the announced fix is not a battery replacement, it's another firmware tweak to hopefully be better at detecting problematic batteries. Only those that throw codes after the firmware update is applied will get a replacement. Community expectation is that this time the code will be permanent, and will put the vehicle in limp mode to avoid it being ignored, but that hasn't been confirmed yet. Meanwhile, I'm up to 6 months or so out of 3 years of ownership where I've been under a no charge, no park in or near structures order, and the 'fix' isn't expected until late December.

    As to the 'Jeeps are hybrids not EVs' pedantic BS, the official classification is PHEV, they have substantially larger batteries than standard hybrids and share battery construction and chemistry with modern EVs vs the lower density, milder chemistry setups found in traditional hybrids. My 4XE as per the federal government is an EV and qualified for the EV credit as a result. It's an EV that also happens to have a gas engine shoved under the hood, when I'm not under a recall I tend to do about 65% of my driving miles in it in pure EV mode so these recalls suck for me. Why I've got a worse of both worlds vehicle? As I said, even with it's limited EV only range I'm able to do a ton of my driving via it, it's an awesome errand machine. (And having as much torque as the Hemi is stupid fun...) I also happen to live in the literal middle of nowhere in Maine so I have to put up with a complete lack of charging infrastructure, and a road that in the winter my Jeep in 4WD fully locked up is one of the few vehicles that will get anywhere. On the flip side, I also need something that can go 2100mi in three days so the ability to just gas and go while towing distance is a must. My 4XE when it's playing ball fills that niche perfectly. I have high hopes for the RAMCharger, just wish someone else would be the ones bringing it to market than Stellantis.
     
  11. cu260r6

    cu260r6 Well-Known Member

    That's the problem most don't anticipate with hybrids. They have two drive systems, double the electronics, and therefore double the problems. My EV has needed nothing but windshield wiper fluid since day one.
     
  12. StaccatoFan

    StaccatoFan Our National Nightmare is over

    Saved for posterity....So don't forget to publish for us the replacement cost of your battery pack when it eventually shits the bed for you. The elements will eventually get to the battery pack, wiring insulation will degrade....it's just natural...all that shit breaks down. While it's relatively rare, it does indeed happen.


    https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/costs-ev-battery-replacement


    Diesel engines failures are pretty rare, and I had a 6.7 Ford die on me and the bill to replace it was on par with replacing an EV battery.
     
    Once a Wanker.. likes this.
  13. Kurlon

    Kurlon Well-Known Member

    Depends on the hybrid, Toyota's (And Ford's as they license the relevant patents from Toyota) setup is simpler than most traditional gas drivelines because it eliminates most of the transmission. Instead of a gearbox, you've got two electric motors and a clever gear layout leading to a near infinite range CVT that doesn't use any clutches, pulleys or other wear items, and never actually disengages any gears. Additionally, it can do a near infinite blend between all EV power, or full gas power, or anywhere in between, including charging while not going anywhere, again with no clutches/etc. Stupid simple, stupid reliable. The downside is you loose some energy shuffling electricity between electric motor 1 and electric motor 2 so not as efficient as some other options.

    Jeep's setup, and what Toyota is doing on their trucks now it sounds like is also pretty simple, take a traditional gas driveline with an automatic transmission and toss the torque converter out the window. In it's place is an electric motor with a clutch between it and the transmission, and a clutch between the gas engine and electric motor. You get something that doesn't have electric losses when the gas engine is driving, it behaves like a locked up torque converter, straight through drive. You can charge while the gas engine is driving, you can regen brake, you can go EV only drive, pretty slick. The downside, your electric motor has to stay in the usable RPM range of the gas engine to allow for quick cutover to gas, and you can't do things like charge while moving slowly if the transmission doesn't have gear range to allow it.

    Neither setup 'doubles' the electronics, and on the Prius side it's hard to say they've got twice the problem rate of traditional gassers, they just seem to go and go and go.

    Meanwhile, don't take your Cybertruck through a carwash...
     
  14. cu260r6

    cu260r6 Well-Known Member

    My battery should last about 400,000 miles. At around 40k now, I have 0% degradation which you can measure in real time by the amount of energy the battery stores. Even at half that mileage, I will have saved far more money in just oil changes alone than a new battery costs. No ICE car is going 400k miles without a new engine, tons of parts, careful maintenance, and thousands and thousands of dollars of gas.

    Here's an older tesla with now out of date tech and battery chemistry that has done 1.4 million miles on four battery packs: https://insideevs.com/news/699413/highest-mileage-tesla-model-s-3-batteries-14-motors/

    Hybrids do have more than double the parts. For example, they need an entire traditional transmission with gears and cooling system, both of which an EV doesn't.

    Few realize how amazing the EV experience is. I tow my 7x12 trailer to my local track and back for about $7 in electricity. I do so in silence without it reving up and changing gears constantly, and it has instant power to pass anytime without downshifting. At the track, I run my warmers off the EV's battery, so there's no need to worry about setting up a generator, the noise of it, or having it quit unexpectedly. It's like living in the future. Ya'all are gonna love it one day. :D
     
  15. StaccatoFan

    StaccatoFan Our National Nightmare is over

    Even generously estimating 400K miles in oil changes because you don't do it yourself, I get to a very generous budget of $5,000 in oil changes for that mileage. So your math fails versus a battery replacement.

    And that's not factoring in the coming tarrif's on the imported batteries.

    Hook your little EV up to my 36 foot 5th wheeler...let's see how efficiently you get from my house to Pittsburgh 400 miles away....If I leave on Monday maybe I"ll get there in time for practice Saturday. And if I offend someone on Facebook or X (I'd have to have accounts there first) then they cannot send a little signal to my little EV so it won't go anywhere because I've been a naughty boy.
     
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  16. cu260r6

    cu260r6 Well-Known Member

    That's about the cost of expected replacement then. Just like with ICE's, the OEM's quote much higher prices than aftermarket replacements. Also, many batteries now allow an owner to replace the individual bad cells along the way avoiding total replacement permanently.
     
  17. Kurlon

    Kurlon Well-Known Member

    Tell me you didn't read my reply without telling me...

    I'm going to also point out again, I'm not against EVs. I'm happy your use case allows you to enjoy a full EV. Mine doesn't, my "local" track isn't that close, and as I stated I've got zero charging infrastructure around me so for now, PHEV is as close as I can reasonably get. In the mean time that means I too have killer instant torque, but my stops at gas stations are measured in a couple of minutes vs an hour or more.

    And what full EV has user serviceable battery packs at the cell level 'cause I've not seen one? I remember the good old days of Prius NiCad packs being an easy to work with setup, literally a stack of batteries and junction plates chaining them together under the seat, but a Tesla pack for example is not designed for cell level repair by the average home wrench, and absolutely not approved to be touched by the mothership.

    $5k to replace your battery pack... where are you pulling that number from? Teslas are looking to be around $14k based on end user reports currently, with a Tesla recertified pack, not new. New is closer to $22k+
     
  18. StaccatoFan

    StaccatoFan Our National Nightmare is over

    @Kurlon if you haven't noticed yet....Facts just get in the way for this guy. He's got EVDS
     
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  19. A. Barrister

    A. Barrister Well-Known Member

    Isn't this the dope that said Kommiefornia wasn't trying to ban diesel trucks?

    But, but, but...
     
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  20. TWF2

    TWF2 2 heads are better than 1

    That is old news. Now they have emergency meetings to ban soon incoming changes :)
     
    brex likes this.

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