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DOT vs Slicks on MW bikes.

Discussion in 'General' started by Trainwreck, Nov 19, 2020.

  1. wiggeywackyo

    wiggeywackyo Well-Known Member

    My routine was:
    T-60 minutes. Warmers
    T-15. Gas
    T-10. Start and warm up engine. Shut off
    T-5. Pressures
    Ride. Shit pants.
    Check pressures. Take notes.
  2. lopitt85

    lopitt85 Well-Known Member

    Would you say that's the tires or the rider? When I was using those tires, as long as I focused on warming up the tires on the first 1-1.5 laps I never had that problem.

    Have you seen anyone overheating hypersport tires with warmers?
  3. TurboBlew

    TurboBlew Registers Abusers

    I would put the rear warmer on a lil earlier because for a warmup on the stands I like for the whole engine/driveline to come to temp so about 30 mins before grid calls Ive got the bike running in 2nd or 3rd gear until the cases are hot to the touch... then throw the rear warmer back on high for the last 15 mins until 3rd call. Also might want to warm the boingers up if its that cold
    Gino230 and rd400racer like this.
  4. stangmx13

    stangmx13 Well-Known Member

    60min on the warmer is the ideal case. If it’s cold and especially if it’s windy, you probably need more time and/or extra insulation. If it’s hot out and your tires are in the sun, you may only need 40min.
    rd400racer likes this.
  5. Gino230

    Gino230 Well-Known Member

    I haven't ridden anything but a slick in many years. Since you said you're not racing, I would explore some of the track day tires available like Dunlop Q5 or similar. I know pros ride these things at the schools and regularly get within a few seconds of a lap record. Plus you don't have to use warmers. And they last longer.

    Slicks offer tremendous grip. If you're afraid you're not going hard enough to keep them in the temperature zone, the easiest way to tell is pressure- Slicks you'll need warmers, so you check your pressure right before rolling out and right after rolling in. If the pressure drops, you're not working the tire hard enough. Focus on the front tire pressure because that is the one that is harder to keep heat in without hard braking / cornering. But in my experience, a mid pack expert pace is enough to keep them hot.

    Alot is always said about conditions, temperature, cloudy skies, etc. One advantage we have at MA is the Junior Cup kids usually go out first at 8AM. By the end of the session they are within a second of the record, so I know I can go as hard as I want :) For 99% of us, 15 degrees of track temp isn't going to make much difference in the lap time.
    YamahaRick and TurboBlew like this.
  6. rd400racer

    rd400racer Well-Known Member

    What about track temps in the 40's? That's what it's looking like for next Saturday at Tally in the morning and this being our first time on slicks, I just don't know what to expect.
  7. prm

    prm Well-Known Member

    So, is there a meaningful performance difference between a Superbike Trackday Slick SC-3 (190/60) and a DOT legal Supercorsa V4 180/60 SC-3?

    Happy to use warmers in either case.
  8. Pneumatico Delle Vittorie

    Pneumatico Delle Vittorie Retired "Tire" Guy

    Yes larger contact patch, more side grip
    prm likes this.
  9. prm

    prm Well-Known Member

    Predominantly a result of size or profile?
  10. lopitt85

    lopitt85 Well-Known Member

    I'm not the tire guru that some on here are, but here's my experience.

    Most of the hypersport tires like Q4/Q5/Supercorsa SP V series/Powercup 2/Powercup Evo will allow you to have plenty of fun at trackdays through the Advanced group, no problem, don't require warmers, and are plug and play fun. Just adjust pressures and boingers like normal.

    From there you can get a little more performance from some of the trackday (TD) slicks that can be used with or without warmers (I prefer with)...such as the Metzeler TD, Michelin Power Slick 2, Supercorsa TD. I like the Metezler trackday and have used those exclusively last few years.

    Next step up would be DOT race tires and full race slicks. They require warmers and the proper pace to keep them in the optimum temp range. You probably won't NEED them for having fun at trackdays unless your outright pace calls for it. But if you're fast enough to use them, why not have the extra margin provided by the grip.
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2024
  11. Gino230

    Gino230 Well-Known Member

    Obviously it will be harder to keep heat in them when it's that cold. Also, don't forget that in general, you use harder compounds in colder conditions. Seems counterintuitive but that's the way it works.

    I really don't have a reference as I've only been at the track once in my life when it was that cold, and as I recall we waited for it to warm up a little!
    rd400racer likes this.
  12. Pneumatico Delle Vittorie

    Pneumatico Delle Vittorie Retired "Tire" Guy

    prm likes this.
  13. notbostrom

    notbostrom DaveK broke the interwebs

    Define set-up. He may have just swapped tires it was tl dr
  14. DaveB

    DaveB Just Riding Around

    Have a quick conversation with Stick about it. He may have some specific warmer instructions for the conditions, he knows the Stones inside and out and will give you good guidance. Lots of variables but if you aren't pushing the tires hard enough it is possible for the tires to actually cool off some from where you had them on the warmers and you can have more grip on lap one than you will have on later laps until the tires stabilize their temp based on how hard you are riding them.
    rd400racer likes this.
  15. 2blueYam

    2blueYam Track Day Addict

    Also, if you are running slicks, watch out for tracks where the average speed is slower. I had plenty of pace to keep heat in my slicks everywhere I ran track days with one exception. Cold mornings at Shenny would require me to lower the pressure about 2lb in my Pirelli SC2 slicks in order to let them flex enough to keep enough temperature in them to work at all. The bike felt horrible until I learned this. It just had no grip in the slower corners. By afternoon, I could raise the pressure back up to my normal setting and everything was fine.

    If I was getting into track days today or getting back into them at some point (not going to happen), I would probably aim for TD slicks.
    nlzmo400r likes this.
  16. nlzmo400r

    nlzmo400r Well-Known Member

    TD Slicks have such a wide range of operation it's wild. I find no perceptible difference between my SC2 and Metzler TD slicks, granted I haven't ridden them back to back on the same day/bike. But one of my bikes has TD slicks and the other has SC2/SC1 and I've never wanted for grip or feel on either.
  17. metricdevilmoto

    metricdevilmoto Just forking around

    Lot of variables to say definitively. Operating temperature is lower on street tires than it is on race rubber and operating temperature is what matters more. Using warmers for a shorter amount of time or on a lower setting would be fine with the street rubber I'm familiar with.
    lopitt85 likes this.
  18. Tristan

    Tristan Well-Known Member

    Your grip off warmers on a very cold track will be the best on the first lap or two, then they can cool off and be less good. So... don't pussyfoot around and let them cool too quickly, and also be prepared to lose a bit of grip at some point. Or just fucking send it and ignore things that probably don't matter...
    rd400racer likes this.
  19. itsrichierich

    itsrichierich Well-Known Member

    Pirelli Supercorsa TD SC3, is that consider TD slicks even though they have grooves in them?
  20. stangmx13

    stangmx13 Well-Known Member

    It takes a pretty skilled rider to gain heat on a track that's 40F. Even mid-pack Expert racers may struggle. The "fast" trackday rider that's 10sec slower will have no chance of gaining heat.

    Going down in pressure for cold temps is not always the right thing to do. The extra flex does add some heat to the tire, but it's not enough to overcome that decrease in pressure. For example, say you set the rear tire to 21psi on the warmers. You run a session and the tire is at 20psi right off the track. So you decrease the pressure by 1psi to gain more heat, now at 20psi off the warmers. You do another session and the tire is at 19.2psi off the track. What did you accomplish?

    Generally, tires have a target off-the-track pressure thats higher than the warmer pressure. Because you removed pressure, you are now further from that target pressure. You are riding around on a soft squishy tire that probably makes the bike feel lazy. And the tire may not actually have more grip - maybe you just convinced yourself that it did.

    Instead, you could add pressure in cold temps. You'll be closer to the target off-the-track pressure. You'll be closer to the ideal tire stiffness, making the bike feel more normal. You'll decrease the size of the contract patch a tiny bit, concentrating the load and heating that contact patch more than if the contact patch were larger. Maybe all that will give you the confidence to go faster.

    Which one to do in cold temps is very dependent on the rider, track, and tires. For me, the faster I got the more I wanted the bike to feel a certain way. Going down in pressure in cold conditions ruined that feeling and my confidence the most. So I stopped doing it. Almost all of my tire setup work for a weekend was figuring out which tire pressure off the warmers would result in a certain pressure on track.

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