Are alternative energy cars more efficient?

An interesting thread to find on a BBS devoted to a hobby that involves significant consumption of petroleum.

 

Want customers to go to the Hybrid/Hydrogen market? All the government has to do is simply make them tax exempt. This would not only help fix our energy issues, but more importantly help fixed our middle east issues.

This is what they did when they wanted to get people to go out west and take the land. They simply gave it away to anyone that wanted to go west and claim a spot.

 

Like I said, ya gotta make sure there's enough around for the important things in life...

 

I didn't think fuel cells needed stored hydrogen?

 

alt. energy

I agree with you on many levels SBK. Hybrids are a niche market, but the same thing can be said of other markets. They're new and need time to develop. Given time, I think hybrids will become mainstream. Part of this is wishful thinking on my part as I grow tired of OPEC's tactics. But given the current gas prices, and the accompanying complaining by everyone (including just about every BBS I frequent including this one), I think that more emphasis will (and should) be placed on fuel economy. As you said, the marketplace drives the products and if gas prices continue to escalate (as they do every summer) then people will look harder as hybrids. And they'll start with hybrid SUV's, since they are so popular. Give people the option to take the whole family and gear and pull a boat but give them 25-28 mpg. In return, they have to pay a price increase but get a (too) small tax break and save money on gas. I think (and hope) it will catch on and it will be a step on the right direction. I believe Toyota is on the right track releasing 2 hybrid SUV's for this year.

As for the licensing stuff, at first I was confused as to why Toyota would share their hybrid technology rather than keep it to themselves. The only answer is to get the economy of scale up so the cost of manufacturing the technology goes down, 'cuz you know they're not making much off selling the rights. As for why would Ford and Nissan use it instead of developing their own? Nissan isn't at a point where they really can, having just gotten back on their feet. They've had the technology for a couple of years and haven't done anything public with it. Ford, on the other hand, has been developing it's own hybrid Escape for years and has yet to market it. But after the agreement with Toyota... Boom! Escape Hybrid for sale... That tells me Ford couldn't get it right, rather than their hedging on the whole hybrid thing. But it's all conjecture and wishful thinking so who knows.

 

Re: alt. energy

Don't be so sure! The licensing thing can be very profitable, if they negotiated the right kind of deal. An up front lump, and a piece of every unit can add up to a lot of $. This affords them the ability to instantly offset their investment and then offset their own unit price by both the economy improvement as well as the $/unit profit from sales to the outside.

I don't know the details first hand of that particular arrangement, but it wouldn't surprise me if they (Ford) bought in large to make it happen in a hurry. They've done it with other parts of their business in recent history as well. As you said, it's conjecture, but I'd be surprised if there wasn't a significant lump sum involved. Toyota has a major investment issue to cover, and licensing a product or technology can very quickly shorten the time required to achieve a break-even.

It's a weird business, as I mentioned earlier. There is a LOT of pressure from the government to show "good faith" and intent when it comes to these things. Sometimes it's simply easier to outright buy a turnkey system - even if it's from a competitor. That said, these things are far from drop-in. The electrical and vehicle architecture changes required are pretty significant.

 

There are several cars for sale in the US market now that qualify as "zero emission vehicles". Meaning, they produce less emmisions with petroleum fuel than a steam plant supplying an electric vehicle does. Ford Focus is one. Another interesting one is VW's prototype 400hp turbo diesel which is supposed to get ~45 mpg.

 

I kinda think that with oil being such a hot commodity on this this planet, some behind the scenes actions are going on to squelch the whole idea of hybrids. Probably run by Monkey Pox, I would guess.

 

Yeah, there's a nice place prepared for Hybrids in the underground bunker, right next to the 100mpg carbure...

I mean, er, that's PREPOSTEROUS!

 

Yeah, but will your fancy "light ray collectors and such" be able to push the 2 TVs I am watching while I sit in my garage working on my motorcycle with my electric tools, all the while surfing the internet for ways to drop weight off my bike as I prep if for another race weekend? Oh, and don't forget my dogs like to read, so I leave the lights on throughout the house with the AC cranked up cause I dont like to sweat while wrenching on the bike.

Fossil fuels rock! I wanna use up my share before the next guy does.

 

there was a huge article in Scientific American about this subject last month, or the month before.
In terms of overall efficiency (from oil rig to mpg) the most efficient was hydrogen cars using hydrogen produced from natural gas.
Producing hydrogen from water requires too much energy.

 

Real world results....

Hybrid Vehicle Mileage Comes Up Short...

 

I think for now i stick with my VW TDI. 49 to 53 depending on how fast i drive. For 100% renewable fuel burn Bio-Diesel, no middel eastern oil needed, just good old american farmers growing crops.

 

about thirty years ago, hotrod magazine wanted to see just how fuel efficient a v8 could be. they used a sbc 350 w/ a 2bbl...250hp and 32mpg. old school, folks! why the hell would anyone want anything less in terms of power vs economy? imagine what some free-thinkin' folk could do today!
true thinkers don't run this racket...it's money grubbin' mf's that should be put up against the wall.
btw, sunoco doesn't import ANY mid-eastern oil. MO2X..half the price of 'other' race fuels and better specs.
if you hadn't noticed, i'll clue you in. get in my way with a hybrid and i'll run your ass over in my gas guzzlin' v8 suv.