Vintage Rules Question - Classes...

Rich Andrews and that pretty GS-450 he has for sale got me thinking - never a good thing - and this is what popped out as a result (see; http://forums.13x.com/showthread.php?t=232028 ) ...I started to respond in Rich's thread but it got so long and involved I figured it needed it's own thread instead of hijacking Rich's for sale deal.

Anyway, where does the GS-450 run?

Is it F-500 and bump to V-3? That would make some sense anyway, Oldakowski is running his fire breathing XS-650 in V-3, cast wheels, and all that, a 450 twin wouldn't upset the apple cart on the face of it, and if H-1's run in F-500 I can't see anyone bent out of shape with a GS-450, or 500 or whatever in there...

So where does the thing run anyway?

And speaking of vintage rules, why in the world is the FT500 assigned to Vintage 4? They have to be horsepower fodder in that class. The later version GB 500's I can understand, that was an entirely different design that could generate some serious yonk with relatively minor modifications, Motorcyclist demonstrated that in an old article, but the FT?

Back in the day, and by, "Day" I mean in the era of E Production and E Superbike in the 80's, the FT-500 ran side by side with SR 500s and their performance was comparable, and when the class changed to Clubman, nothing changed...In fact nothing at all changed in that class until the introduction of the SRX-600 (...with the exception of one clever chap, Cam Roos, one line in the rule book that had been there in perpetuity concerning the inclusion of in-line fours to 400ccs, and a then gray market bike that had yet to be introduced stateside called the FZR400...Cool story for another day)...

E Prod, E Super, and Clubman always were filled with SS trim RD-350s and 400s, and FT's and SR's in Superbike form...That was the class...No one bike ever dominated...I raced both SR's and FT's back then and I can tell you the difference is negligible...V-2 should be opened to FT's, it will provide one more opportunity for guys to drag an old race bike out of the garage and stick it on the grid, and more people racing is good. I'm told an old friend of mine, Bill Putt, would even bring his FT out of retirement and grid up, I need to work on my mullet and find some OP shorts.

Anyway, I know this isn't earth-shaking schiet, it's not about double bubbles or Brembo master cylinders, I'm just trying to make sense of things...

 

Tell your old buddy Bill to get that thing ready and go ahead and enter it in V-2 and F-500. If no one files a protest, I guess its not really cheatin'. Thats seems to be the logic of some folks around here. I run those classes and I wouldnt protest it anyway.

 

If a SR, built to the gills can keep up with a built to the gills FT (riders be equal) the SR will not be long of this earth.

 

a quick look through the rules doesn't really seem to have any glaring problems.

I do think that we should remember to remove the gs450 misprint from the 500GP rules.

One other thing I find odd in 500gp. Pre 1972 BSA, Norton and Triumph 650’s with restrictions: Original OEM frame, swingarm, motor, 4 speed transmission, 35mm forks , and 30mm carburetors. are allowed in

That's cool, but since that's the case and a triumph make's 48.00 HP (35.0 kW)) @ 7250 RPM Stock and weighs 421 lbs full of fuel

I don't think BMW /5's should be limited to to the R50. The R60/5 has the same amount of speeds (4), make's much less horsepower and weighs much more. 40 hp (29.5 KW) at 6,400 rpm Stock and weighs 462lbs full of fuel.

I say let the R60 in with no restrictions except engine size, no overbore (on a provisional basis if you wish)

And maybe ease up on the Stock carb requirements for the stocker CB350's in the GP classes, allow Mikuni rounds slides to ease tuning nightmares.

Sean? what do you think?




















Oh, I still think wanton disregard for written rules for Vintage classes rates a slap for the 1st offence and an outright ban for the second, whether they are close in timing or years removed.

 

Mr. Lizard, thanks for the GS clarification.

As to built SR's blowing up...True, true, up until they figured out you could run studs the length of the barrel on the side that had been battened down by those overstressed allen head bolts....After that SR motors became pretty bulletproof...

Bottom line concerning the FT is this...V-4? Is the FT a V-4 bike? I don't see how anybody can look at the rules or some of the in-line 4's that run that class, or big twins, and say with a straight face that the FT belongs in V-4...There is, on the other hand, ample historical evidence from WERA's old class structures for them to compete head to head with SR's...All four valve heads are not created equal, the performance potential of the RFVC motor in the GB is simply greater than the FT...

Hey, my bump up class will be V-2 next season, so the inclusion of FT's in V-2 would just mean more fast singles to contend with on the track from my knothole...In the interest of full disclosure, I do have an old Ascot in the basement, but I have no intention of blowing the dust off of it and running it, I'm too much in love with this little CB I got from Rich A...

That's it, that's all I got. I'm not wed to the idea but I thought I'd pitch it. It would be nice to see more bikes on the grid, and I think throwing the FT into V-4 discourages anybody with an FT who wants to be remotely competitive from coming out. Obviously the guys running V-2 primarily, those most effected by any change in the rules, they should be the ones solicited for input, so I'm done running my V-1 yap...

 

4V head FT500's will never be in V2. (in my mind)

Or V3, or F500, Not of the period or of "like design"

The will always be a few bike's that fall through the cracks. We can't have a class for each & every.

If we had a class for everything, every possible bike and everyone got a ribbon it would be called the Special Olympics, not Wera clubracing



That's why you buy a bike that's legal and run it.

You can, over time, with a valid and well thought out dissertation, maybe, just maybe, over time... get a machine or component of "like design" or indexed in If... If... its a good fit.

I know, I've done it.

 

I knew it was a four valve head, is it a monoshock? If not, why not let it run in V-2 or Formula 550 in SS spec. If it proves to be a bad fit, too much for the class. Perfomance index it back out.

 

Are carbon fiber belly pans legal in 350gp ??

 

as Belly pan, yes.

As a fairing lower with oil containment, no.

 

Ever the s__t stirrer arent you. I know you cant help yourself, I have the same problem sometimes, like now.

First of all, shouldnt that request come from someone who actually runs a formula cb? That or a similar request was made last year, and the majority of stocker cb riders said no to carb changes.

Another similar class that is now extinct in wera died becuase some people wanted to change the rules in it every year. Fortunatly the Formula cb riders have learned that when you have a good thing that works, leave it alone.

 

And now....

No one is suggesting that. However, with rider entries what they are and will be in the future. Now is not the time for exclusion but inclusion into vintage. In SS trim do you really think an ft500, if its not a mono-shock, has more potential than a gs550, rd350/400, or 500 kaw in f-500? Or V-3?

Wasnt there a guy a few years back, more like ten, racing a triumph twin with 4 valve heads in V-3? I think he owened a beemer shop. Like design.

Also, when I first started racing in the early 90's rd 400's couldnt run in V-3 because of the mag wheels. You could if it was converted into spoke wheels. Maybe thats why the GS450 fell thru the cracks and it was stuck in V-4 for so long. Likewise for the FT.

 

I thought the FT500 had a 3 valve head . . . .

 

A GB500 has a 3 valve head.

 

An FT has a 4 valve head and the GB has a radial 4 valve head. The Hawk has a 3 valve head.

Ken

 

That's the one!!

I knew there was a 3 valver in there somewhere

And I think honda had a cb400 twin with 3 valve per cylinder in the late 70's

 

10-4 sir....actually, carbs were discussed recently on another thread...and JoeC and I actually agreed (I swear to frikkin god) that stock carbs, once sorted out, were fine.

Eric Mercer was in there somewhere as well. He related what he thought was a recent carb issue turned out to be electrical.

My main problem with going away from stock carbs is....how the heck are you gonna visually, on the grid, in the pits, tell the difference between a V1 bike and a GP bike?... the waters would become muddier.

I've allways liked a clean break between a stock class and a modified class....carbs do that here.

This V1 stuff is killin me....I'm setting up another 350GP bike, just in case

 

Re: the GS in V3. I was getting absolutely crushed down the straight at Grattan (and everywhere else... but that's my bad) with my stock motored GS in V4. I know I'm new to WERA, but it seems to me that a GS450 needs motor work (500 pistons and block, gr head) to be competitive in V4, regardless of wheel size. I'm not asking or suggesting a rule change or anything like that, I was just curious what you guys think since this discussion was already going on -is a 17" wheeled gs450 really be too much for v3?

 

V-3 and below represents classic vintage, V-4 and up the beginning of the modern era, which 17 inch wheels would be a part of. So, no 17 inch wheels in V-3. Go back to 18 inch and enter the GS in F-500 and v-3, if its not a mono shocker.

 

I fixed your insensitive remark, Bob.