Change with Cuba?

What's your favorite tony? While overseas I tried a few of the monte cristos from havana...they were amazing...not badly priced either...16€ for a 5 pack :up:

 

Thanks for the post. What would be your recommendation for dealing with Cuba?

My thoughts are along the lines of how China has changed over the last 15 years or so. Allow limited free trade between the US and Cuba, and eventually the idiots running the gov will realize that people allowed to work for themselves will be more productive and they will start to relax restrictions.

Probably over simplistic on my part, but I'm a dangle the carrot in front of the horse to motivate it kinda guy.

 

Hey lets try that in America!

 

Comrade, please let me show you some films and give you some pamphlets for our party.

 

After we helped Castro overthrow Bautista(sp), the second thing Castro did was close down the clubs and kick their American owners out. I doubt he has changed his mind about that either.

 

It's just my opinion, but I would think Cuba would welcome the end of the embargo and gladly take U. S. tourist dollars, commie or not. Wouldn't this infusion of cash stimulate their economy and begin turning things around?

 

I think I need to improve my second language skill because it seems that I am repeating myself on this subject over and over. I have given my opinions with clear objectives in the past. I will likely have to revisit these soon on this post.

First, I am sure you will find many Cubans that will provide a different view. Most of these are easily found in Little Habana. They are the children of the revolution that even after reaching this land, they are still brainwashed after 20-25 year of living under Communism. BTW this is also applicable to other Communist Country. My friend married a Chinese lady he met while studying in Australia and she fails to recognize what is essentially wrong with China. She blames all of China's problems on the peasants.

Raul is more ruthless than Fidel. Fidel is always the more idealistic. Raul does like the good life. However, there is still no freedom in Cuba. Believe it or not, Raul is a puppet. The Communist (which Raul) is a part of, runs the Country.

China should not be used as an example. Economic Development Zones is slavery.

We do all this talk about equality in this country but fail to recognize how we enslave other overseas when we deal with government or individuals. There are plenty of documentaries (Up the Yantzee) that sheds some light on what is actually happening in China.

I don't fear for a Free Cuba. The money will flow. There is plenty of cash ready to go. The problem is that you cannot trust the Cuban government. Like I said, I sent money to Cuba for the first time in my life to help my family rebuild since their homes (town) was hit by two hurricanes and they said, thanks but we cannot rebuild, the government won't sale.

The Cuban government depends on poverty. The real embargo is by the government on the Cuban people.

Cuba has wasted every Industry that it had, sugar, tobacco, coffee, etc. They just recently informed all banks that they would not pay any of their debts which by the way, they were only paying off the interest.

Free Cuba and Cuba will rebuild by its people.

 

I may have. My point is that the end of the Embargo will do little for the Cuban people. Cuba is very interest in trade with the US as long as it is on credit. As a matter of fact, and I can be wrong. I think that farmer and some other industries are free to trade by they don't because the US government won't back up any credit they extend to Cuba.

Free Cuba and it will rise.

With regards to the term rape, I believe that in our dealings with China, we are paying the pimp (government) and raping the people. Again, there are plenty of Documentaries on this subject.

There is plenty of Tourism in Cuba. The people don't benefit from this. Every single dollar that goes into Cuba only empowers the system's ability to crack down on the people. This is the reason that up until a few weeks ago, I had never sent money to Cuba.

Crackdown in Cuba are down only because you cannot be an enforcer and tell on someone who you depend on for some help in feeding your child because that person has family in the US that sends them money.

 

I am not trying to come across like a dickhead or a know it all. It is just that I have lived a life under Communism and I still remember what it was like. I am 39, I have been here since 1980 and I still think that those first 10 years are half my life time.

And when I hear people here blame the Embargo, I am reminded of every other word Castro used in speeches. Nothing can be Castro's fault, the system's fault's, the revolution's fault, or Communism's fault. If something is wrong, it is the because of Imperialim, because of the US.

BTW, I spent 8 months working in Mexico and 4 months in the Bahamas, 3 weeks in the Dominican and you hear the same stuff on the streets, all the problems are the fault of the US. This is what they hear from the local government.

My apologies if I have insulted anyone. I will try to be a bit more cautious in my writings. But if I do insult you, don't worry, I won't blame it on the US, I will always blame it on my second language problem.

 

You said free Cuba and it will rise - is there a growing sentiment among the Cuban people to rise up and fight for freedom or do those who disagree with the government tend to flee? Is there hope for a free Cuba in our lifetime?

 

Hawk thanks for the insight. My first glimpse of cuba was when I saw the film Buena Vista social club in the theatre many years ago. It looked a lot different than what they teach in school. And even then I found some Cuban ex-pats didn't agree with the film.

 

I have given some thought to your question. I don't know if I have an answer but in trying to evaluate the question itself I have come up with some reasons (excuses) why a revolution in Cuba is not feasible:

1. It did not work for the indigenous habitants - there is nowhere to run in an Island, This happened throughout the Caribbean.

- in case someone brings it up, Castro did not come to power because of a revolution. He made an attempt, was captured, freed by a priest and fled to the mountains. The people of Cuba and under Pressure from the US is why Batista fled and Castro rode triumphant ontop of a tank into Habana.

- It is hard to put pressure from the outside. Cuban's independence from Spain was successful because Cubans (cuban born spaniards and slaves) join together against the Crown. Isolation is a bitch.

2. No support. The world seems to need Castro, he is well loved. There have been plenty of individuals and as of recent even groups who have been vocal and ended up in jail or being killed. Yet the French say nothing, they must like those sunset, little virgins and cigars.

3. October compromise. After the Bay of Pigs debacle (thanks JFK), JFK signed an agreement with the USSR that it is still being observed. There have been plenty of Cuban impresoned in the US for attempting to transport weapons to Cuba, even from Puerto Rico (US territory).

4. The tatle-tale (sp). In my town for every 5-10 people there was one person whose sole responsibility was to keep track on people. Even as a kid, I remember innocent baseball games coming to a stop when these people came around. People were afraid to do. This is hard to explain, it is just a response.

- btw, this people stop doing a good job after the fall of the USSR. The government lost the ability to provide the basic good. These people now depend or have to ask for help from the people that they oversee, their job is compromise. But they cannot afford or tolerate negative comments toward communism or the Castro brothers.

- along this same path. Imagine if someone in your family comes home and tells you, Bush sucks! That night you will not sleep for you have to options, tell on your family member first thing in the morning, turn them in or risk being turned in.

5. What is freedom. Honestly, I think that I could have lived happily in Cuba. I don't hide the fact that I was a true Communist. I lived that shit, I ate it, it was everything I knew. I did not know I was coming to the US until I was picked up 3 days before I touch land in Key West. I never dreamed of coming to America.

 

You are welcome. Film/Media is a great tool. :up:

Again, this is just my view, my opinion.

 

I don't think you've insulted a soul here.

The more points of view added to a conversation the better.

You didn't do the Code school at Barber in '06 by any chance and have a Vemar CF lid? If so, sorry I crashed our bike.

 

Well, the status quo isn't accomplishing much either. China is far from perfect and there's plenty of stuff handy to hit the ventilator. But say what you want about China, damn it, it's improving on many fronts.

I am not sure if Baustista lost the revolution more than Castro won it. That island has a fascinating and sometimes "amusing" history.

Successful revolutions happen from the inside, outside forces tend to mess things up more often than not. Drop the embargo, let things normalise, Chavez will mess things up for a while. it'll a couple of generations but things will get better.

 

No not me.

 

In the absence of freedom, I cannot, on principle, accept what is going on in China. How would you like for our government to dictate what States can have economic areas, who can work where?

I can say it enough, watch documentaries on China, you may change your views.

And once again, the Embargo has nothing to do with the plight of Cuba or its people. There is plenty of foreign investment in Cuba as it is.

I don't know why I am having such a hard time trying to explain this. Free the people, allow people to chose their destiny, and willing people will find the way.

Yes and no on the revolution issue. Yes it must be started from the inside but sometimes people need a place to plan or get stronger. History shows that every revolution has had some outside support. Almost every single one, even the American Revolution.

 

So how do the people free themselves? A millitary action form an outside government? And if thats the case, why have no governments attempted in recent years to free the people form opperssion? It doesnt seem from the outside looking in that it would be difficult to move on Cuba, but I'm sure it would have global consequences if someone did.

 

A military coup is the only action that is feasible from the inside other than the government opting to choose democracy or something else than repression, I mean communism.

The US is bounded by an agreement not to attack Cuba or allow any entity to take off from US territory to attack Cuba or to take arms to Cuba. It was part of the Agreement that was signed by JFK in order to bring the October crisis to an end. Reagan did warn Castro that any release or boat lift would be consider an act of aggression against the US and that the US would retaliate. Note that since the 1980, the only time there has been a boat lift or mass or open fleeing from Cuban without action from Cuba has been under Democratic Presidency in the US. Both Bush adopted Regan's Stance. Carter was (is) a push over. Clinton gave concession everytime Castro allowed rafters to leave openly. The only reason Elian was returned was because Castro threathen to open up the ports.

It would not take much to overthrow the Cuban government militarily. However, there is vested interest in maintaining Cuba as is. There is lots of investments from Canadians, Frenchies and Spaniards in Cuba. In a free Cuba, those investment would go belly up as most of those investment were done with the Cuban government on stollen properties. Also, a free Cuba is not in the best interest for any other Caribbean Island, Mexico and the Northern Coastal Countries in South America. Imagine the revenue lost to this other Countries if Cuba was free. The likelihood is that Americans would start flocking to Cuba. Just as it was before 1959.

In the end, Cuba is the darling of every Country that hates the US. For it is a thorn on the US (from a diplomatic point of view). Castro has defaulted on almost every single loan made to the Country, yet Castro is a hero to the anti-imperialistic movement, anti US. Cuba can do no wrong in the eyes of the world. Human rights violations are ignored by the UN. The shooting of the brothers to the rescue never happened, neither did the massacre of the boat named "Democracia". When Castro speaks the world listens. They are blinded by their hate of the US.

Castro is the Architect of what is happening in Venezuela. Chavez is his disciple. Venezuela has replaced the USSR, they now provide the bulk of goods to Cuba. Chavez security is comprised of Cuban Nationals headed by none other than Raul. Venezuela also receives in exchange for their goods the services of Cuban doctors who are assign to Venezuela without inputs and most are sent alone to ensure they won't defect or jump to a neighboring Country into exile.

 

You are doing a fine job of explaining. Some are not doing as well at comprehending.