If Alan Wilson is so concerned about safety...

Then why the hell does he always put a kink in pit-in and place-pit out in the middle of turn one, or right at the entry to turn one? And why does he always put the Pit exit in the worse possibly place and then toss a kink in it?

Just read the Sport Rider article on the man. Safety First and all that. Yet I find it interesting that when I look at every one of his track designs, inluding the new one in NH, I find they all have the same unsafe features. While the tracks themselves look pretty safe and a lot of fun, the way he moves riders onto and off of the track is down right insane. Pit-in for instance. Everyone one of them has a kink or switch back and it must must make him think it slows a rider down, making pit in safer...WRONG! What about when you race the course and have to respond to a meatball flag. Riders will come blasting into the hot pit but now they have to face a sharp jig with a wall that can kill them -- CMP is a great example of this. Dangerous at speed and if taken badly can put you straight into a cement barrier. And Barber, wow. I mean holy christ would it kill the man to give us a pit-in and pit-out on the straight??

VIR North and Summit Main present two perfect examples of the RIGHT way to move riders onto and off of a track: Enter them to the inside of the straight, well out of the race line where riders coming down the front straight have plenty of room to avoid entering riders. Unlike NH, Barber, CMP and Beaver. Where one mistake gets you a bike up the ass.

SO I ask, why is this guy touted as the end all of safe track design?

I am not saying these tracks are not fun. Nor am I saying they are not safe in other areas. But this constantly repetative mess he makes for moving us onto and off of a track needs addressing.

 

They never said he was good at it.

 

If you feel so strongly about it, why don't you ask him? email [email protected]. I've only ridden one of his tracks (a Nascar conversion no less) so I can't really comment one way or the other.

-peekay

 

I thought it was just me who noticed these pit in/out situations. Don't get ME started.

 

I'm not sure what racetracks you guys are talking about, but most likely the "esses" before the pit-in, are for cars. To slow them down before they enter the pitlane.

There have been way too many car accidents where the driver is slowing down from high speed, and right before crossing the pit lane line, locks up the rear tires and spins into the pit crew, taking them out like a pack of dominos...

 

Alan Wilson is reknown for designing better-than-average motorcycle tracks. Therefore, the point about pit safety should be a valid discussion. Mr. Bargy, why wouldn't someone with your clout address Mr. Wilson, to ascertain his reasoning?

 

R.I.F.

 

Clout? I wish!

If enough racers complain to the RIGHT people, there is clout. I'm one voice. I've complained till I'm blue in the face about track safety and still get blown off. Like I said don't get me started on track safety. Racers have hunderds of voices.

Most pit in/outs are designed for cars. Unfortunatly cars pay the bills. Money talks BS walks.

But a well designed pitin/out will work for both bikes and cars. It just takes some fore-thought.

 

I "think" he designed Gingerman as well which has a very tight left hander at pit-out as well (looks pretty close to Beaver).

 

I have no idea what Mr Wilson is thinking about either. The pit in/out setups at Beaver and CMP are safe for neither car or bike. At Beaver race control can't even see pit out from where they stand. It has to be one of the most unsafe pit out designs I've ever seen. Think CMP, but first make T1 blind with the number 3 brake marker on the apex of a hill right before turn in. Then put pit out right smack dab in the middle of the exit. I don't think he could have made it any more hazardous if he tried.

 

I raced at Beaver Run with AHRMA in September (first motorcycle road race for the track) and we had to add haybales to left hand turn 6 and in the right hand kink turn 9.

The kink (turn 9) was especially scary because it's the fastest point of the track. It's similar to the kink on the front straight of VIR except that it doesn't have any run off area. Well unless you call about 20 yards of grass before a guardrail run off.

The pit-in at Beaver Run is OK but the pit-out would be a mess during an endurance race. Also, I really dislike the turn one design because it's so tight after the green flag and everyone bunches up instead of spreading out after the flag is dropped. Funny how similar this is to CMP and Gingerman in terms of pit-in/pit-out and turn one. It could be a lot better for motorcycles, IMO.

I guess it could be a lot worse too, especially if you've ever raced Daytona or Rockingham. Anyone here actually race Rockingham way back when? Oops I'm showing my age

 

I am glad to see I am not entirely crazy. I just keep riding these tracks and think, WTF everytime I pit in or out. Putting a kink in pit-in is beyond crazy. CMP, with its wall and armcoe will take someone down one of these days. forcing a rider to slow down when coming into the hot pit seems counter intuitive. Give him an easy entry so he doesn't have to park it in front of the other racers. And never put the thing where its even close to the race line.

Ah well. Like Ed said, unless we all bitch about it, it'll never change. But I am tired of hearing how great the guy is at track design when he pulls this bone headed shit every time he designs a track. I was all excited to see the new facility in New Hampshire. Then I look at pit in and out and whaddaya know. He pits us out right between 1 and 2, like beaver and pits us in with a kink. Someone needs to drag the guy to VIR to show him how to do it right.

 

FYI,

I sent Mr. Wilson an email inviting him to read this thread and make comments. I figure it couldn't hurt and who knows maybe we can get him to see our point of view.

 

Ask and you shall receive.....I wonder how long until he wades into the fray?

 

I would imagine at this time he's either:

A.) Taking his time to formulate a response.
B.) Getting addresses of everyone here who slammed his designs.

Let's hope the outcome is positive despite the negative feedback......

 

Let's just hope he doesn't have the same attitude as Dick Diaso. I doubt you'll get a response ....... it'd be pretty hard for him NOT to know whats been said about his tracks.

 

Or, he has read one of dan's threads and decided we are not worth responding to...

tom

 

Alan Wilson's response

From : <[email protected]>
Sent : Friday, December 5, 2003 12:00 AM
To : [email protected]
Subject : Re: Track Safety for motorcycles

Bruce

Thanks for the heads-up.

I typically do not subscribe to forums mainly because if I did I would never have time to do any work.

However I took a look at this thread and would respond as follows. Perhaps you could post it.

There are several answers to the questions posed.

1. First. You will note that most of my pit lanes are on the outside of the track, as are paddocks. This is because of cost. It adds a considerable amount of money to build paddocks in the infield, not just because of the need for tunnels and bridges, but because it adds to the amount of land that has to be purchased and developed; because it requires additional safety elements in the infield (barriers, etc.), and adds the need for considerably more cost for infrastructure such as water, sewer, etc. In many cases the additional costs would mean that the track would not have been built.

2. A pit lane needs to be between 650 and 1000 feet long, add regular entry and exit roads at approx 250 - 300 ft each and the straight along which a regular "traditional" pit lane would be built has to be at least 1200 to 1500 ft long. This length is not always available when combined with a need for a 600ft deep paddock and safety zones from the previous corner. Consequently, when faced with finding space for a pit lane in an in-infield situation, we are often up against space problems (or in the case of Mid America, a requirement by the owner to place the paddock near the "lake" and to make room for drag strip and a future kart track on site), which make it difficult to sometimes get pit lanes as well located as I would like.

3. Then there is the need to keep the track close to pit lane where the start lane runs parallel to the pits. When the pit lane is on the outside of the turn, we have space problems keeping the distance wide enough for safety, yet close enough to see pit boards.

4. All this means that in many cases we need to bring riders off track on the outside of a corner and then slow them down before they enter the pit lane.

5. As far as possible I try to make slow corners at this point, and then try to give enough space for the rider to continue past the turn-in point at race speed before entering the pits, with enough braking room to slow down before he turns. (As at Gingerman).

6. The corner entering pit lane is tight because it is VERY necessary to slow competitors down in the pit lane. Remember that far more track activity takes place under conditions when there are not enough pit workers available to control speeds than occurs during well staffed race events. Experience at many different tracks has shown that riders and drivers tend to run into uncontrolled pit lanes at speeds that are just not safe and can be dangerous when the pits are uncontrolled. Hence a need to slow users down significantly when entering the pits. Some of the forum readers are correct. This is mainly a car thing, but also applies to some riders.

7. Remember that track safety is not just a designer or track owner responsibility. Every rider/driver has to also play their part, and one of the most important factors applying to competitors is their pit lane speed. In all circumstances, other than endurance racing, the need to speed in pit entry and in pit lane is not very significant. In endurance racing, the pits are the same for everyone and should be treated as a caution zone. Another element is the need for riders and drivers entering and leaving pit lanes to stay inside the yellow lines. These are designed to reduce the potential for riders entering or leaving the pits from crossing into race lines. Most riders and drivers comply, but some do not and they can add to awkward situations. A pit in lane is a slow down area, pit out is faster but still the responsibility is for the rider leaving the pits to merge into the race in safety, and to give up his line if necessary.


Having said all this, I do agree that several of my pit lanes are not as I would really have liked. However, in every instance there are factors involved in their layout that have resulted in their shape and length. For example at Barber the pit entry I designed came off the track on riders left before the entry to Turn 14. The pit entry built was required by the FIM. Carolina is not really long enough because the track was originally planned to continue past the last turn into a 180 degree double apex sweeper before turning left onto the pit straight, in which case pit in would have been before the final turn. AMP is just a very small piece of property with an awkward shape and a paddock defined by the requirement for a large skid pad and autocross facility.

Ultimately, there is no perfect situation to very track design situation. I would like to build the perfect track but no one will ever come up with enough money. Barber was close but even then we could not make the straights as long as we wanted, because of the nature of the terrain and the site drainage needs outside the zone in which we worked.

 

The septic tank stench yet has caught another fish welcome to the Wera BBS

 

I'm a fan now.