Bio weapon - track fuel

[Dr. GoFast]

^ why not? maybe to bring down the octane a bit? it's $6 a gallon, it's not like liquid gold or anything...

[Wes07]

Mix it to be cheap. Get an octane in the middle of the two for something like $4 a gallon.

[Trent1098S]

I've been riding with NESBA for a year now, and I was at Barber this weekend where I ran across the BioWeapon freebie offer. Although I didn't partake in the offer, I have some thoughts regarding this product that I posted on the NESBA forums.

I'm crossposting what I wrote here because I noticed this thread when doing research. I'm hoping that in doing so BWFuel has a better chance of seeing what I wrote, to respond to my questions. Sorry for the length and lack of introduction of myself on the WERA board.

Here's the NESBA thread, my questions are on page 2.

http://tracktalk.nesba.com/showthread.php?t=10206

---begin crosspost---

Ok I'm going to be the skeptic.

Biodiesel must be mixed with gasoline for it to run in a gasoline engine. BWFuel is candid about this, stating "Bioweapon is refined partly from poultry biproducts". Most homebrew biofuel producers usually try between 5% and 15% biodiesel to pump gas. It's still quite experimental... the point being, you can't run straight bio fuel in a gasoline engine like you can in diesel engines. The Biodiesel simply is an add-on, much like Ethanol.

Here's why I'm playing the skeptic. The proces for making biodiesel is essentially free - there's a LOT of people doing it at home nowadays. You can take biodiesel and add it to normal pump gas, and you arrive at a cleaner burning, cooler running mixture. Sounds great.

But I'm thinking economics here. It doesn't really cost you any more than pump gas and time to make a biodiesel gas additive.

In the end, it's actually cheaper for you to make and run bio-gas than it is to run pump gas, because you're mixing 15% or so of a "free" product which costs nothing to produce in to normal gasoline. This means if pump gas costs you $2.60 a gallon, once you mix the biodiesel in, you're only paying $2.21 for the end product because 15% of the end result didn't cost you anything other than some time to wash and filter, and some trips to the local grocer to harvest used chicken fat from their rotisserie...

So you take $2.60 pump gas, mix in 15% biodiesel that's brewed in your basement, and you have a product that costs you $2.21 a gallon. It *is* a great product but the laws prohibit you to sell it to other people to use on-road, because you're not licensed. So you turn around and sell it for $6.00 a gallon to offroad guys, pocketing $3.79 a gallon.

It's smart. Not only does the stuff run cooler, but you effectively boost the octane a bit so it runs a lot like race fuel. And pocket quite a chunk of change in the meantime. It's possible to crank out as much as 500 gallons of biodiesel a week, working alone.

While some may be interested in trying some out, they should be asking some questions about your base bio additive mix, basically to determine and ensure it's within spec, rather than risk an engine on an unknown factor.

You've got to think, a bad 15% mix of biodiesel that's out of spec with pump gas can utterly destroy a spark ignition engine, and some of the built race engines on the track cost a LOT of money. The final octane rating will vary widely with the quality of the additive, the concentration of the additive, and the techniques used to filter and wash the biodiesel - right down to temperatures the mixture is kept at in key points.

Think about what would happen to a highly tuned engine if the octane were reduced below 87.. cylinder detonation, etc..

So here goes:

What tests have you sent your biodiesel additive in for?

Do you have the lab reports available for inspection?

What is the ester and methanol content (% mass)?

What standards do you meet or exceed? EN 14214, ASTM D-6751, etc?

What's the specific density of the bio fuel additive you produce?

What is the ratio of bio diesel to gasoline?

What is the base gasoline you use in your mix? (Both specific brand and octane please)

What's the flashpoint?

What is your liability insurance limits, coverage (which states), and what is your warranty to consumers if your product damages their engines?

Thank you in advance.
__________________


---- after a response from another member, I added this post ---

Sorry. I'll break it down here in shorter form. The more I think about this, the more upset I'm getting. This post is going to sound rude - but I feel it's justified. If you provide facts, figures, and additional information that convinces me otherwise, I will be happy to jump on the bandwagon and promote your product.

Otherwise I'm calling this out for what it is.

First.. warranty. I've got a lot of buddies with expensive engines (myself included).

1. What is your warranty and insurance if your mix is bad and we blow an engine because of it?

2. What happens if one of my buddies blows an engine running this, gets asspacked by another rider, and one or both of them get killed or maimed? (Nevermind, I already know the answer to that question.)

Economics...

3. What justification do you have for charging $6.00 a gallon? Is it because Sunoco is $8 and you know racers will shell out their cash to save $2 a gallon for a product that you can't sell legally anywhere else TO anyone else?

4. Hypothetical here. I can make biodiesel in my basement with animal/plant oil, lye, and methanol for about 50 cents a gallon. Mixed 3:20 with 87 octane pump gasoline at $2.59 a gallon, this arrives at a component part of $2.201 + .075 = $2.28 a gallon at cost, after chemicals. It costs about $100 for the basic supplies to make biodiesel using the methanol process (most of which people already have or can fabricate), so I'm not even going to count production costs.

This leads to the question of WHY you are charging $6.00 a gallon for something we can already do ourselves? I could easily scale up a small operation, make 500 gallons or more of biodiesel a week if I quit my job and worked at home doing this. If I did a 1:20 mixture I could make 10,000 gallons of "race" fuel, at a profit of $37,200 per week. Even if I did a richer 3:20 mixture I could still crank out over 3,300 gallons of "race" fuel and make over $9,000 a week.

Shit I'll quit my cushy $150k/yr job and sign right the hell up for that. I'll even pay someone to haul the shit across country and drive it to whatever track you're riding at.

Sorry if I'm coming off harsh, but I can see a lot of my buddies getting duped for modern day snake oil.

If you are selling something other, please provide more information about your production process, standards compliance, insurance, mix ratio, lab results, and so on. If you're selling a legit product please also provide a patent number and more information on your manufacturing process.

[BWFuel]

This discussion has been continued at http://tracktalk.nesba.com/showthrea...t=10206&page=5

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Information about BioWeapon fuel can be found at www.bwfuel.com

[bEeR]

Originally Posted by RockRocks

they are giving free trial tank fulls at the NESBA event at Barber this weekend.

If the claims are true then $6/gal is attractive relative to race fuel. But like anything else new, it needs to be proven. Claims are all upside compared to race gas, so the natural skeptic will be on alert until more data/real world reports are available.

I know zip about making fuel so will shut up now.

You can get Sunoco GT Plus for a little over $6 a gallon.

[bEeR]

I don't think those people would make it over here on the beeb. They're too light hearted, I kept thinking Durani while reading that thread.

[bEeR]

Originally Posted by Trent1098S

I've been riding with NESBA for a year now, and I was at Barber this weekend where I ran across the BioWeapon freebie offer. Although I didn't partake in the offer, I have some thoughts regarding this product that I posted on the NESBA forums.

I'm crossposting what I wrote here because I noticed this thread when doing research. I'm hoping that in doing so BWFuel has a better chance of seeing what I wrote, to respond to my questions. Sorry for the length and lack of introduction of myself on the WERA board.

Here's the NESBA thread, my questions are on page 2.

http://tracktalk.nesba.com/showthread.php?t=10206

---begin crosspost---

Ok I'm going to be the skeptic.

Biodiesel must be mixed with gasoline for it to run in a gasoline engine. BWFuel is candid about this, stating "Bioweapon is refined partly from poultry biproducts". Most homebrew biofuel producers usually try between 5% and 15% biodiesel to pump gas. It's still quite experimental... the point being, you can't run straight bio fuel in a gasoline engine like you can in diesel engines. The Biodiesel simply is an add-on, much like Ethanol.

Here's why I'm playing the skeptic. The proces for making biodiesel is essentially free - there's a LOT of people doing it at home nowadays. You can take biodiesel and add it to normal pump gas, and you arrive at a cleaner burning, cooler running mixture. Sounds great.

But I'm thinking economics here. It doesn't really cost you any more than pump gas and time to make a biodiesel gas additive.

In the end, it's actually cheaper for you to make and run bio-gas than it is to run pump gas, because you're mixing 15% or so of a "free" product which costs nothing to produce in to normal gasoline. This means if pump gas costs you $2.60 a gallon, once you mix the biodiesel in, you're only paying $2.21 for the end product because 15% of the end result didn't cost you anything other than some time to wash and filter, and some trips to the local grocer to harvest used chicken fat from their rotisserie...

So you take $2.60 pump gas, mix in 15% biodiesel that's brewed in your basement, and you have a product that costs you $2.21 a gallon. It *is* a great product but the laws prohibit you to sell it to other people to use on-road, because you're not licensed. So you turn around and sell it for $6.00 a gallon to offroad guys, pocketing $3.79 a gallon.

It's smart. Not only does the stuff run cooler, but you effectively boost the octane a bit so it runs a lot like race fuel. And pocket quite a chunk of change in the meantime. It's possible to crank out as much as 500 gallons of biodiesel a week, working alone.

While some may be interested in trying some out, they should be asking some questions about your base bio additive mix, basically to determine and ensure it's within spec, rather than risk an engine on an unknown factor.

You've got to think, a bad 15% mix of biodiesel that's out of spec with pump gas can utterly destroy a spark ignition engine, and some of the built race engines on the track cost a LOT of money. The final octane rating will vary widely with the quality of the additive, the concentration of the additive, and the techniques used to filter and wash the biodiesel - right down to temperatures the mixture is kept at in key points.

Think about what would happen to a highly tuned engine if the octane were reduced below 87.. cylinder detonation, etc..

So here goes:

What tests have you sent your biodiesel additive in for?

Do you have the lab reports available for inspection?

What is the ester and methanol content (% mass)?

What standards do you meet or exceed? EN 14214, ASTM D-6751, etc?

What's the specific density of the bio fuel additive you produce?

What is the ratio of bio diesel to gasoline?

What is the base gasoline you use in your mix? (Both specific brand and octane please)

What's the flashpoint?

What is your liability insurance limits, coverage (which states), and what is your warranty to consumers if your product damages their engines?

Thank you in advance.
__________________


---- after a response from another member, I added this post ---

Sorry. I'll break it down here in shorter form. The more I think about this, the more upset I'm getting. This post is going to sound rude - but I feel it's justified. If you provide facts, figures, and additional information that convinces me otherwise, I will be happy to jump on the bandwagon and promote your product.

Otherwise I'm calling this out for what it is.

First.. warranty. I've got a lot of buddies with expensive engines (myself included).

1. What is your warranty and insurance if your mix is bad and we blow an engine because of it?

2. What happens if one of my buddies blows an engine running this, gets asspacked by another rider, and one or both of them get killed or maimed? (Nevermind, I already know the answer to that question.)

Economics...

3. What justification do you have for charging $6.00 a gallon? Is it because Sunoco is $8 and you know racers will shell out their cash to save $2 a gallon for a product that you can't sell legally anywhere else TO anyone else?

4. Hypothetical here. I can make biodiesel in my basement with animal/plant oil, lye, and methanol for about 50 cents a gallon. Mixed 3:20 with 87 octane pump gasoline at $2.59 a gallon, this arrives at a component part of $2.201 + .075 = $2.28 a gallon at cost, after chemicals. It costs about $100 for the basic supplies to make biodiesel using the methanol process (most of which people already have or can fabricate), so I'm not even going to count production costs.

This leads to the question of WHY you are charging $6.00 a gallon for something we can already do ourselves? I could easily scale up a small operation, make 500 gallons or more of biodiesel a week if I quit my job and worked at home doing this. If I did a 1:20 mixture I could make 10,000 gallons of "race" fuel, at a profit of $37,200 per week. Even if I did a richer 3:20 mixture I could still crank out over 3,300 gallons of "race" fuel and make over $9,000 a week.

Shit I'll quit my cushy $150k/yr job and sign right the hell up for that. I'll even pay someone to haul the shit across country and drive it to whatever track you're riding at.

Sorry if I'm coming off harsh, but I can see a lot of my buddies getting duped for modern day snake oil.

If you are selling something other, please provide more information about your production process, standards compliance, insurance, mix ratio, lab results, and so on. If you're selling a legit product please also provide a patent number and more information on your manufacturing process.

You'll fit right in if you keep posting stuff like that here. You won't get chastised for it.

[gixxie750]

I ran a whole tank through at CMP in nov. I am on an 04 750 modded,but no motor work and a map on my pc from their website. It deff made a little diff in power on the upper end of the RPM's. It also smells really good IMO. I may try to run this stuff next season.

[fzrkentucky]

I was there. Made me want chicken wings. LOL Everybody I heard that uses it said they liked it. I was too late to get some.

[badwee]

My name is Brad O'Dell and I am a primary founder of BWFuel Co. We have been working very hard to respond to the questions and feedback provided by all those who tested our product. Here is a link to the most recent BioWeapon thread in NESBA.

http://tracktalk.nesba.com/showthread.php?t=11448

There are some engine teardown images, a fuel spec sheet, and a link to our updated website. (You must have a NESBA forum login to see these images.)

Many of you may know two of our other primaries, Jeff Pitzer and David "DooDoo" Brown, from WERA, CCS, and NESBA. The three of us will be racing BioWeapon this season in CCS and WERA, along with a handful of other well known riders. We all hope to earn your respect for our product and company by riding with those whom we wish to furnish fuel. We are also looking for partners in distribution as well as racers to fly our colors on the track. BioWeapon will also be offered on the NESBA website in the near future for the track days we will be servicing.
Please feel free to contact me directly at bodell@bwfuel.com or here and on the NESBA forum.
Thank you all once again, and I look forward to seeing you this coming season.

[badwee]

http://www.motorcycleaddicts.org/pit...tml#post227690

[dobr24]

Originally Posted by Dr. GoFast

^ why not? maybe to bring down the octane a bit? it's $6 a gallon, it's not like liquid gold or anything...

I clicked through the "buy it now" link on their website and for 15 gallons the charge is actually $125.00. So at least the initial outlay is $8.33 per gallon. Now maybe it is $6 a gallon after you already have the drum and pump, but that is not made real clear, and their website say they give you the drum and pump free?

[Mike Kelly]

A few comments:

Eventually the emissions police will be watching those at the track, so anything that can help in this regard is a bonus to me.

Every new product is met with skepticism. The good ones prove themselves out, the others go by the wayside. Product and service Darwinism at work.

Who cares how much someone makes? Without getting into a lengthy discussion of prices and markets, it sounds like their pricing is in the ball park. If they can make it for pennies of what they charge, then more power to them. That is what capitalism is all about. Now if you think it should only sell for x amount over expense as that is "fair" then go check out a socialist economy.

I wish them luck and maybe I'll check out the Chicken Juice myself after hearing a bit more feedback. I'm not sure I am an early adopter in this instance.

[GixxerBlade]

Is there any independent research that has been performed that back up the claims of BioWeapon? Non-oxygenated but makes more power. Hmmmm.

[metricdevil600]

Trent 1098S, you make a lot of valid points, but you lose me when you start carrying on about the price. He can charge whatever he wants for the fuel. While tech data, dyno charts, power claims, tech specs and long term effects are all things he does have to justify, he doesn't have to justify the price.

You could grow your own vegetables in your back yard for the cost of seeds and water. You could make your own rearsets if you had a CNC machine. Does that mean the grocery store and Vortex are ripping you off? You could basically make your own anything. But you're not. You don't get to decide what an acceptable profit margin is for a business. If the purchasing market decides the price is too high, it won't sell. That's the only way consumers can dictate price.

I don't have a dog in this fight either way. I don't care if he's selling miracle motor tonic or cough syrup because pump juice is fine for my bike, but as far as the price goes, who cares? Focus on the facts (which you seem to have a solid grasp on) instead of his price point.

[Mike Kelly]

[Shenanigans]

Originally Posted by GixxerBlade

Is there any independent research that has been performed that back up the claims of BioWeapon? Non-oxygenated but makes more power. Hmmmm.

3. We have not done any specific tests towards catalytic converters. None of our test bikes have cats on them, or we would have cut one open by now.I do have a 2008 BMW M6 that does have cats. It is equipped with one of the most stringent computer engine management systems around. I have run about 250 gallons of BioWeapon through it without a problem or error code. I do not have any empirical data to definitively tell you that prolonged use will not hurt your cats, but I can say that I trust my $120k car to it. (For what it is worth)

Hell, I'm convinced

[Bad Dog]

Originally Posted by R1Racer99

Why fix something that isn't broken? Gasoline seems to do a nice job for me.

Your kidding right? Gasoline is crude at best, its not engine or human friendly that's for sure.

I would love to try some of this, I run a 50/50 mix of pump and race gas and this would keep costs down,

[badwee]

BWFuel is happy to announce that the new BWFuel.com is now up and running. We would like to thank everyone on the forums for their feedback and questions. We used our interaction from these forums to redesign our layout and added a faq containing information that was requested by those of you who posted. We hope that our new website will be well received and informative enough to satisfy the scrutiny of the riders who we intend to furnish fuel. It has been a long haul to get established before the season opened up, but we are here and ready to serve. Thank you all once again, and we can’t wait to see you on the track.