1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Vintage Cash Prizes - Mid-Ohio July 8, 2017 - Start Money

Discussion in 'WERA Vintage' started by Can-am, Dec 8, 2016.

  1. Hate McDead

    Hate McDead Well-Known Member

    I did a 1:55.3 in 2012
     
  2. Robin172

    Robin172 Well-Known Member

    Yeah but Jason Roberts did 1:54.333 in 2013:moon::D
     
  3. Can-am

    Can-am Well-Known Member

    Thanks, but on a what? and which WERA class would it run? Information is valuable, but a little context makes it usable.
     
  4. Robin172

    Robin172 Well-Known Member

    I'm assuming 350GP.
     
  5. TLR67

    TLR67 Well-Known Member

    v7 or V8 in this?
     
  6. ringdingding

    ringdingding TWO-STROKE MILITIA

    I see problems with both of your columns. There is recorded times that they are based on. And there is the ascending order of the classes potential that is not reflected in your columns.

    500gp should be closer to V-2, WERA used to start 500gp in front of V-2. Its because of the CB350 bumping into 500gp were slower than the built CB's and other machines in V-2 that it was changed.
    If the columns stay the same, real 500gp bikes will clean up.

    In the second column, same for V-3. It should faster than F-500. In ascending order, it's potential puts it below F-2stroke and above F-500. There should be separation between them(f500and F2stroke), stick V-3 there.
     
  7. 83BSA

    83BSA Well-Known Member

    There is only a single issue with the foregoing:

    It is not based on reality. It is based upon what one thinks it should be.

    Ron's charts are fact based on current available data.

    I was faster several years ago. But that guy isn't showing up to race in 2017, as much as I wish he would.

    Cheers,

    Dave
     
  8. ringdingding

    ringdingding TWO-STROKE MILITIA

    In the edited post you are correct, in the complete post, that was stated.
     
  9. Can-am

    Can-am Well-Known Member

    Richard,

    Thank you for taking the time to help analyze the data. Handicapping is both an art and a science. I used a lot of data last year, but the results still depended upon individual performances on race day.

    Last year we only paid out on the handicaps in the "F500, V1 and 350GP" race. The report was published in post #2 of this thread. As you correctly stated, " real 500gp bikes will clean up." We faced that issue last year. As you see in the report and in the handicaps "real 500 GP bikes" were singled out for special treatment. "Formula 500 is the baseline and has been the fastest class over the years. 500 Manx and G50 riders have matched Formula 500 over the years and will run on a par with them." This was done for a number of reasons. These real 500 GP bikes had not shown up on a WERA grid in several years. If we based the handicap for the entire class on them, the present 500GP grid would have no realistic chance to collect any prize money. If we ignored them and assumed they would not show, we could create a cherry picking festival for 500Manx and G50 riders. So I split them out and had them run on a par with formula 500, which they had consistently matched in the past. None showed up. I fervently hope to see Tim, Pat and Dave and others on a WERA grid again with the "real 500 GP machines". It is wonderful to hear and see. But for the prize money they will run with no handicap to F500, although it is still likely they could collect some of the prizes.

    In the second race you also raise an issue I am struggling with in preparation of the handicaps. On some days V3 is faster than Formula 500 and Formula 2 stroke. On average it is not. A lot depends upon rider turnout. F500 and F2T have largely been the same participants over time, so there times are essentially the same on average. I am struggling with how to handicap them relative to the field in the second race. I appreciate your insight and encourage others to speak up.

    So, keep those observations coming. I recognize that some may be looking persuade me to grant them an undue advantage. I want to assume that most commentators on this board are trying to assist me in determining to correct outcome. Of course, I will remain vigilant in reading the comments. Thanks, Ron
     
    ringdingding likes this.
  10. guzziguy

    guzziguy Well-Known Member

    My feeling is that the handicap should be based less on who shows up and more on whet the class potential is, its a little hollow to win because the fast riders didn't show up or the fast bikes didn't show up. I know that its difficult to judge but I feel it is a bit of a disingenuous premise to handicap just to make a class competitive, it is racing after all, even if not professional racing.
     
  11. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

    It's for fun and a little cash, no one is going to pay for their season....
     
  12. guzziguy

    guzziguy Well-Known Member

    I thought about that but then why not handicap everyone individually by their own speed, I suppose how far do you take it. I'm not really bothered one way or the other, just expressing a philosophy. I think the symbolism is more important than the actual value, lets face it we race for pieces of wood. I suppose it is added interest so the fun aspect is probably most important in this case.
     
  13. Can-am

    Can-am Well-Known Member

    The main idea is to try to grow the grids with a little incentive. Last year I put up a purse for 1 race. This year I am putting up prize money for two races at a wonderful event. I am also putting up start money for 10 riders who don't win prize money. I am hoping this will provide a little incentive to have bigger grids with more competitive racing. If so, it should help grow interest in WERA vintage racing. Handicapping allows me to spread the prizes across the entire grid, not just by class, and hopefully encouraging everyone to run as fast as they can.

    Last year I set out with the idea that the handicaps would be set on the pace required to win based on the fastest times in the dry at a given track over the past 5 - 10 years. This period should have pretty much demonstrated the potential of the class, subject to outside factors like changes to the track. This method worked pretty well except for 500GP. When reviewing times for that class it was clear that when the 500 Manx or G50 racers were on the grid, they won the class handily and ran on a par with F500. However, they had not showed up at WERA events for the past 5 years. To base the handicap on their times meant the current participants who had been carrying the class in recent years would be eliminated from any realistic chance of winning the prize money. Hence that class was split, but only that class.

    Now comes the harder part. The second race "V3,V5" doesn't provide me with as good a past database on which to build handicaps. V4 is often not run for lack of participants. V5 often has a significant percentage of EX250 which have to be eliminated from calculation as the handicap has to be for true V5 bikes. V3 is sometimes faster than the bump up class of F500, but not on average. Formula 2 stroke tends not to have a different contingent from F500. But despite these challenges I have pretty good data from 4 south eastern track which gives a relatively good look at how the classes compare.

    However, data on Mid-Ohio in recent years is confusing. The low turnouts due to the conflicting AHRMA race and the AMA class structure obscures where potential winning times of the WERA class leaders. So, keep sending in observations. What should it take to win a given class? Has anyone turned that time in the past few years? If so, who and on what?

    I am looking forward to seeing large grids and competitive races.
     
  14. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

    Exactly - no need to overthink it, just have fun :D
     
  15. grady anderson

    grady anderson Well-Known Member

    ;)
    I could be wrong but I think no V6 either. And no DSS or DSB
    Looks like nothing for my recent acquisition an FZR400
    But I have not seen an official schedule
    though me not seeing it doesn't mean it isn't here somewhere
    Unless this thread is just about the $ incentives and those classes are being run but just with non of the handicaps or money. Which is fine by me
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2017
  16. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

    No D classes at the event but he's talking about the prize money not the overall schedule.

    The event will have V6 LW for the 400 (and you can ride up to V6 MW easily enough).
     
  17. grasshopper

    grasshopper Well-Known Member

    I'm in!
     
    JBall likes this.
  18. grady anderson

    grady anderson Well-Known Member

    Thanks
     
  19. knarlydog

    knarlydog Well-Known Member

    Hey all - So I've never made it to the AMA Vintage Days event due to the AHRMA conflict. Given that is resolved, I'm thinking of making the trip. I am not familiar with the WERA class structures so before I get my hopes up.... I have a 98 TZ250, does that fit into any of the classes for this event? Thanks
     
  20. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

    I need to look at the V classes but off the top of my head Formula 2 for sure. I'll check the rulebook and get back to you with more.
     

Share This Page