Union--non Union

I don't know, considering that my example was with Ford. It's one of the few cases I know of where two plants, in different countries, build the exact same product, making it a perfect example for worker comparisons.

 

You know many of our issues with the company are not contractual, most of our complaints that company management refuses to live by their own rules much less our negotiated contract. Safety being a primary cause for concern here.

I can understand your slant. At union meetings you sometimes wonder if allot of these guys even have a clue. Often members don't understand the issues, only that they want more money. Our union members are well abreast of the issues and it's hard to find anyone that can't discuss the political climate with regard to the workforce, health care issues, safety issues, to name just a few.

I'd like a crack at those high wages we are so guilty of having. 50% of my income comes from overtime and in a good year I make almost as much as a first line supervisor.

I'm not surprised at what people think on these message boards and across the country, most are un-informed non-union workers. All I can say is just read a union newspaper and see what these people are working toward, and seek how bleak the future is for the American worker.

I go to the track, there aren't a whole lot of rich guys out there. Most of us are skimping, plotting and scheming to get money for our bikes and a track day. We are all in this together, we have to face it together, and we can changes things for the better, if we all stick together. All of us. Who among you is not exploited in some form or another?

If I can interject just one thing to the management group of readers here, please, please, please, just one time.....once....give someone the benefit of the doubt. Don't jump to conclusions or delusions just once, one time, think that the worker is sincere and trying to do the best job they can.

 

well poo poo poo. sorry about your bleak future. and just what will a union do to pre-empt this exactly? i see you've been "unionized/indoctrinated" like the rest. why is it everyone i know who is non union NOT have that mentality? could that be because it only exists in the union laborer's mind? sorry, but if your proffesional future is bleak, it's time to consider something else.

does no one take responsibility for themselves anymore? why would you EVER put your future in other people's hands.

piss off a communist hippy today: work hard, and be happy.

 

Amen!

Too many people subscribe to the "pay me more and I'll do more school".

The "Do more, make yourself more valuable and you'll earn more" system has always worked for me. These "just do enough to get by" people are always the ones who when fired / laid off wonder why and feel victimized. I Managed a firm thatteh union put out of business, plain and simple. How is that good for the rank and file???

I am not catagorically anti-union but I'm really having a hard time justifying a cashier at the local chain grocery making $18 an hour.

I'm sure I'm in trouble by now so I better shut up.

ML

 

Some of you are so uninformed it is almost unbelieveable.

For the record cornerning my post, I did not say the Unions would be the salvation of the American worker. They probably will be, if that salvation is possible, but are certainly not a necessary element.

Why would I ever put my future in other people's hands? How silly of you to believe that your future and mine is not in the hands of others? Every day decisions are made that will affect you and your family and our future population by those "other people". You live in a "representative democracy" which means that you are represented by others.

What do you think just happend to your cost of living since fuel prices skyrocketed over the past couple of years? Everything you puchase will be affected as costs will rise for the producers. Will you receive a fair wage increase to cover those costs? Have your raises kept up with inflation? Was the inflation figure a real tangible true assessment? I'll bet you don't even know how government arrives at those figures.

The scary thing to me is that you can and probably do vote.

 

I don't get raises! I'm self employed!

If gas money is that tight for you you shuold quit racing.

Seriously you picked a VERY poor example. Adjusted for inflation, gasoline has actually not kept pace with inflation, not even close. Production efficincy has made gasoline actuall cheaper to produce than at any other time in history. It's taxes which result in the majority of permanent (not temporary market condition spikes) price increases in gas. And we all know the party closest alaigned with oranized labor loves tax increases. Take it rfrom those of us who create wealth and give it to those who are "have nots". That sure motivates me to go out and make some more. NOT!

Other items that have not kept pace with inflation are milk, eggs and bread. However farming subsidies make it difficult to use these as valid cases.

 

I've read more union papers/books/documents than I care to have. They are all the same... brainwashing bullshit scare tactics.

I was tasked with reviewing their(OCAW/PACE/ATLC-or whatever they are now) Radiation Worker training program for the Dept. of Energy. It was sad. My first question after reviewing the program was, "How many of their lawyers did it take to write the program". It was about 200 pages of how the US Government has exposed them to deadly toxins and how much cancer rates have increased. They are as good as the politicians when it comes to using statistical graphs to support their bullshit points of view. They want to get rid of written exams so that their illiterate employees can keep working too. Now keep in mind that we are talking about working with radioactive and hazardous materials that require you to be able to read safety documents/signs to maintain SAFETY(you know--Unions big whining point). You can bet they know that Union paper though.

Not all unions make outrageous wages. Some stick with their main goals... fair wages/benifits for fair/safe day's work. Most workers in the private sector that I deal with do want to do a good job. In the Unions serving the US Government(DOE) there is a different mentality... when they actually do get around to doing their job they do a good job. It's getting them to do that job that is so difficult. They have to catch up on their sleep during the workday and try to get work done during the short overtime period.

 

John I understand the frustration of everyone dealing anything written by the DOE. I had to deal with volume of regulations, while designing changes to some of the nuclear reactors here in Illinois. We are talking about he simple changes to cat walks, stair cases and ladders. It take's at least 5 to 7 levels of approval before they can be constructed on site.

the underlying message is....the reactor is a very dangerous machine and we have to assume the worst possible senarios.

I agree that doing away with written test is a bad thing.

 

someone just read their monthly union propaganda letter. "the sky is falling, the sky is falling! we can stop it for you, just send in your dues!!".

complete and utter balderdash.

 

It's insane getting things approved through DOE. NRC is actually better in our end of the business. I don't deal with operational reactors any longer mainly cleanup.

With regards to the Union I was talking about after the approval process is done and it is time to do the work. They look for anything to stop work.

A good example of stopping work is a simple steam trap repair at a DOE building... the union boilermakers and pipefitters held up a job for weeks claiming there was an asbestos concern and the management bought into the bullshit not remembering that I was a former site employee with system knowledge. In a meeting they once again stated that there had to be an asbestos assessment and I immediately explained to them that the system the pipefitters were talking about was three feet away from the system that was broken. That's when the DOE ES&H manager explained to the guys that I had worked in the building before and that they(planner/estimator) should take a look at the system themselves. I had the trap fixed not 4 hours later.

I've got many hours working side by side with the union IN THE field not in the offices and at 8 different DOE sites. I know exactly how they are because I've been there. It really isn't all their fault as individuals. I blame alot on the system(Union management and site management). The workers during a long down time were told to make themselves look busy or even just told to outright hide so that no one knows what is up. Damn shame because there are thousands of highly trained and skill craftmen in the unions here and all over the DOE for that matter.

Like I've said before... things seem to be turning around for the Unions in many cases.

 

That's why it's SO much better working with Naval reactor systems.
A) They arn't trying to make a profit with the reactor.
B) No stupid people. Navy Nucs know thier shit
C) Standardized reactors and control suites. (wouldn't THAT be nice for you guys?!!!)
D) No mountains of red tape and political bullshit.

I was part of a DOE plant refueling, what a nightmare... I'm really surprised that some of these things ever get put back together correctly!

I feel sorry for you guys dealing with all these buracratic assholes.

ML

 

I currently deal with DOE, Naval Reactors and the Nuclear Regulatory Commission.

NRC is the easiest to deal with. Usually fairly reasonable at least on the cleanup side of the house. Haven't dealt with their operations directly. No one does it quicker.

Naval Reactors is a pain in the ass but they do things right... just really slow. Never reasonable... just always right. No one does it better.

DoE does things really screwed up and slow... extreme amount of waste fraud and abuse. Have some really good people but the system is really flawed. No one screws up more shit.

STT-Guy thanks for the comments about Navy Nukes.

 

Anyone catch the show on PBS last night on Bethlehem Steel? Don't know if it was a national broadcast or just local PBS here. Pretty good insight into how the steel strike of 1959 influenced management thinking that ultimately led to the downfall of the US steel industry.

 

Union good & bad

I own a small manufacturing company that has always been union. We did work for the government during WWII, and unionization was a criterion for contracts.

As a business (part) owner and manager, I think unions have positive and negative aspects aside from the wage/value debates.

On the positive side, working with a contract spells out how things are to be done, and what to expect in the relationship. It eliminates a lot of turmoil and BS concerning wages, discipline and discharge, grievance procedures and work rules. Even if we did not have a union, we would still work with a negotiated contract.

On the negative side is that our union often ignores the contract, and attempts instigate "extra contract" conflicts. For example, they will grieve when management exercises a specific right enumierated in the contract, and take the grievance all the way to arbitration. The union also sets unrealistic expectations for our employees by promising them economic benefits that are not affordable, then saying that the company is screwing the employees for not coming through with what the union promised in negotiations.

I think the biggest negative is the consistent message from the union that without them, the company would screw the employees. Managing the dissention is costly.

The plain truth is that I want to compensate my employees as much as I can. Well paid workers tend to make better workers - - but if the company is not providing a return on equity comperable to that which the stockholders could get elsewhere, guess what happens to the jobs? So, if I don't pay the workers enough, they leave. If I don't pay the stockholders enough, they leave. Our union does not understand this dynamic. I guess that's why so many of the plants they have organized have shut down in recent years.

 

All knowing one thank you for weighing in it is truly a pleasure to be graced with the presence of such a knowledgeable, infallable mind.

UNINFORMED How bout some guy that has spent the last 35 years in a union facility. Mr X (Of which I supervise about 15 of) thinks that it is bullsh@t that he has to pay a $10 co-pay to go to the doctor. Mr X also thinks it is bullsh@t that he has to pay $5 for his prescriptions. He also thinks that is entirely okay to work Saturday for time and a half and sunday for double time then call off for a couple of days siteing the fact that he due to the Family Medical Leave Protected condition of GOUT he cannot make it to work.

Help us out with your qualifications: How many years experience do you have in the UNION environment. How many in a NON-UNION environment.

He is what I have learned.

I spent 2 Years as an employee in a UNION Shop. I F@#$ing hated it. No matter how hard I worked I received the same treatment as that good for nothing a@@hole who sat around using his 25 years seniority to get over. Until it came time to lay off and then I went to the top of the list.

After I finished College I became a FRONTLINE Supervisor. I worked for the next 8 years in a NON-UNION Shop where hard work and a moticum of dedication resulted in raises and promotion for employees based on MERIT without regard to seniority. I had an awesome team. I took care of them when they did things right and I coached them when they did things wrong. The understood that EVERY opportunity I got I was going to make sure the saw the results of there hard work. My favorite scene was when an employee of several years came to me all in a huff because he found out that an employee I hired only 2 months before made more than he did for doing the exact same job. Unfortunately for him he did not understand that while the job title was the exact same...his production was 10% lower than the new guys??? (FORMER UNION EMPLOYEE I GUESS).

For the last two years I have worked in a union shop. As a frontline supervisor it is IMPOSSIBLE to create a TEAM relationship, by proxy there is a WEDGE driven between me and my crew. No matter how hard I try to create the enviroment that I am just the team leader as opposed to their BOSS eventually it always ends up that I am the devil himself. When I thank them for a job well done they scoff because it doesn't make a difference in their pay. When I coach them in the situation of poor performance I am the heartless bastard that doesn't care about the plight of the working man. I guess they don't notice I show up everyday and put in my 12 hours like the rest of them???

As far as informed goes Mr Templet...The last 12 years of my life has shown me EVERYTHING I needed to see.

 

OH AND ONE OTHER THING.

I haven't said it for a couple of days.

ALL UNIONS SUCK

NOT ALL UNION EMPLOYEES SUCK

ALL COMPANIES ARE GOOD

NOT ALL JOBS ARE GOOD

IF YOU DO NOT FEEL YOU ARE BEING TAKEN CARE OF QUIT. THERE IS SOMEONE OUT THERE THAT WOULD LOVE THE JOB YOU HATE.

 

Keep your eyes open dude, there is still more you need to see. 12 years is just the beginning...

Not all companies are good, in fact they aren't necesarrily better than the unions (in the pursuit of being brief, note that I did not say worse, the same, etc.... just not better). They exist to make money. PERIOD. Some just treat people better than others. Some treat their people like crap. Some are good places to work, some aren't. Some are run by good people and some, well, remember Enron?

 

Companies do not exist to make money. The exist because we tell them we need whatever product they are making/distributing. Therefore the fact that they are performing a service for the HUMAN beings on this earth and in most cases pay people to help them...makes them good in my book. The job itself may suck but the company is a good thing.

 

Ok, let me rephrase that: The people and investors that own companies exist to make money. The companies that don't make money, don't exist for long, unless the goverment helps 'em out OR they were non-profit to begin with, or someone else buys them and figures out how to use them to make money (that's a loaded statement, btw). You are free to draw your own conclusions....

 

Ya gotta make a profit!

Companies exist only to make money. The way they do that is to provide a product or service that is worth more to the consumer than the sum of its costs. Those who profit most (in the long run) are those that serve best.

The key to making money is to figure out how to make a product or sercvice that has an intrinsic value that is greater than the cost. It's no easy task. That is why relative to the general population, few start and run businesses.