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Protest

Discussion in 'WERA National Endurance Series' started by Mongo, Jul 19, 2006.

  1. Sunny

    Sunny Banned

    Who the hell say anything about opinion has to be right? :Poke: You need help papa.......... :rolleyes: :D
     
  2. HPPT

    HPPT !!!

    And you need an anti-tuck front end.
     
  3. Sunny

    Sunny Banned

    I already got that since 2004! Get with the program papa! :Poke: I am working on an anti-spinning rear end now! :D
     
  4. Dutch

    Dutch Token white guy

    Having a white plate does not preclude someone from being an idiot. Just ask Vella or Stone or.......
     
  5. LordMDP

    LordMDP ... ... ... ....

    nuff' said
    :up:
     
  6. RobbieDowie

    RobbieDowie New Member

    Shawn,

    Just so I'm clear on this, was our appeal denied by a panel of 3-5 independent members as I recall described in the WERA rulebook, or was our request for an appeal denied? If our appeal was heard as it should have been, who was on the panel?

    Robbie
     
  7. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

    Your request for an appeal was denied because there was nothing to appeal - the fender was illegal and no one could argue that. I'm not going to waste a bunch of peoples time with your whining about how put upon you were because you didn't bother reading the rules of the organization you chose to race with.

    Since you seem intent on whining more about this answer a simple question - was the fender cut?
     
  8. RobbieDowie

    RobbieDowie New Member

    Shawn,

    Neither you nor I want to get into this again. I choose not to race with WERA because I don't think it is run professionally. You represent WERA and choose to make personal attacks like saying we don't bother to read the rulebook and we are cheaters. Anyone who knows what really happened knows that we had absolutely no idea that triming the fender would be considered illegal. You decided triming the fender was illegal. Fine. We disagree. We appealed. You decided we didn't get an appeal. You call me a whiner. Nice. You can respond if you like but I'm done with the whole thing.

    Robbie
     
  9. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

    You're posting complaining about us enforcing a rule after this much time has passed - yes that's whining. If you cannot understand how a modified fender is illegal in Superstock per our rules - and how us enforcing a basic black and white rule is unprofessional then I'm pretty glad you've chosen not to race with us.

    If you were done why did you even post in this thread? You won't even find the teams who were protested this time agreeing with your side sorry. The fender was beyond blatantly illegal.
     
  10. teampolevault

    teampolevault Well-Known Member

    I personally remember noticing that fender cause I was impressed with how fast yall were going on your home track and all the smack yall were talking before the race about kicking some east coast teams asses on track. Yall did manage to put laps on us and after our crash also but the primer colored fender caught my eye going down the front straight and then I could see that it also was chopped off up front. I brought it up to the team owner and sure enough it is illegal in s.s. class so there is the protest. The reason to cut a fender that way in endurance racing is to make it easier and faster to remove the front tire during pit stops and it does work. We did that at the gnf when we changed to the superbike class to try to compete with Vesrah for the overall championship on pit stops and it worked good for us. Pit stops went from 1:15 to around 25 seconds for two tires and fuel with a few other mods to the front. So the rule is very black and white on that rule and yall just got caught out on that one,sorry bout that but there is not an argument then or a year later either. I thought WERA was run pretty damn well but we have not been protested yet so maybe that would change everything for me then too.
    Good luck to you in the future:up:
     
  11. jeffrop

    jeffrop Well-Known Member

    Jill Sherman
     
  12. stuman

    stuman Well-Known Member


    Mongo,

    As obvious as it may seem to you that a cut fender (and YES the fender was trimmed) is illegal in super stock, it's not so obvious to a team that was competing in your series for the first time no matter how many times they read the rule book. And just so you know, we did check the rule book before we trimmed the fender and could not find anything about trimming bodywork in there. The rule book states that "exact replica body work" must be used, I'm paraphrasing here so forgive me if I don't copy the whole section of the book into this post, but it doesn't say anything about not trimming that bodywork. The rule book states elsewhere ... if it doesn’t say you can do it, you can't... again I'm paraphrasing but you get my meaning. So here’s the problem, that part about “if it doesn’t say you can do it…” is what you cited when you upheld the protest. So let me give you a few other examples of things that would be illegal using that same logic… Cutting a hole in the bodywork to accommodate a frame slider or trimming the lower fairing so it will clear the exhaust and not burn the paint. I’m sure both of these modifications are performed on a regular basis in super stock.

    There was some question in our minds about the protest so we filed the appeal according the procedures outlined in the rule book and you decided not to follow those procedures and summarily denied our request for an appeal without even notifying us. So basically, you make the rules and are judge and jury as well. That’s cool now that we no how things work we just choose not to compete in your series.

    The way things unfolded at Willow left a very bad taste in our mouth, we raced Vegas just to show that we could be competitive at a track we had never raced on before and to prove that the trimmed fender offered no quantifiable competitive advantage. In fact we were able to change our front wheel faster at Vegas using a stock fender (which is plastic and more flexible then the aftermarket fiberglass fender we used at Willow) and finished second overall on a track we had never raced prior to that event.

    The reason this post caught my attention is just because I just find it interesting that Velocity filed another somewhat controversial protest that was again upheld. I can understand how a team might read the rule book and think that it is ok to run an aftermarket master cylinder and not think to check and be sure that the bore and stroke are exactly the same. It’s a technicality and I’m sure the teams that were protested weren’t intentionally trying to cheat. I’m sure the teams that were disqualified aren’t real happy with the decision, but they will just have to live with it like we did.

    It seems like your rule book could use a little work. I know it’s a real pain but it would help to avoid some confusion and could improve the level of competition.

    All this crap is just my opinion and you can feel free to ignore it. No need to respond, I just wanted to clear a few things up.
     
  13. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

    As always it amazes me that we have thousands of racers every year who understand it just fine yet when someone gets busted doing something wrong they blame the wording of the rulebook.

    By the way - I did notify someone on the team and the proper procedure was followed. As the rulebook says, the WERA President has the final say - and she said your appeal was denied.

    As for TVR, they read and follow the rules. They know the rulebook and know what they feel is illegal and protested, I wasn't sure if they were right or wrong until I took apart the masters in question. Turns out they were right. What's truly interesting to me is that you seem to find it odd a team can actually know the rules.
     
  14. Buckwild

    Buckwild Radical

    Imagine that.
     
  15. ghetto customs

    ghetto customs Who's that Parrish guy?

    Tryen To Catch Me Riden Dirty............................
     
  16. sanglant

    sanglant Active Member


    Arguing technicalities in the rules is interesting and all (like the frame slider bit earlier), but one thing is pretty clear in superstock vs superbike, and that is the spirit of the rules. Yeah, everyone pushes the envelope, but it's not really hard to read the s.stock rules and see that something is probably illegal or at least is into a grey area.

    Sean, one thing I'd like to see written into the rules is a way to get clearance for a modification *prior* to a race weekend. I've asked about a few things, and I've gotten good replies on some and been essentially dismissed on others. That would really take away any concern about "wondering" if something were allowed and leaving it up to a protest after it's too late to change after the race.
     
  17. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

    All anyone has to do is call or email me. Many people do every year just to make sure they're okay. I prefer email so I have time to research if needed but mostly so the rider has written confirmation they can print out if needed when I'm not at an event.
     
  18. sanglant

    sanglant Active Member


    I understand that, and it was how I asked my previous questions. However, I don't know where it is listed in the rules that there is a specific mechanism. I understand that some judgments have to be made "on the fly," but if there was a formal, delineated process for submitting a question, there'd be no room for argument or the "I don't understand why..." issues. I also know that some of my questions were not answered when I sent them in by informal email. I'm sure it was simply oversight in the volume you receive each day, and I had them answered quite well at a later time. Without a formal "pre-approval/rejection" process, though, I think it would be hard to penalize someone that inquired in a timely fashion and couldn't get a ruling, especially if the penalty was greater than just a simple offset of advantage. A small fee added to the process could be imposed to keep down the frivilous questions and to defray the time spent answering.
     
  19. Buckwild

    Buckwild Radical

    Not a bad idea really.
    "If it doesn't say you can, send me $5 and the question regarding its legality". Your call will be answered in the order in which it was received.

    Seriously, it is a good idea. I'd like to volunteer to be on the approval panel. I can deliver responses in a 'clear and consise manner'. ;)
     
  20. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

    You seriously think we need to put in the rulebook that if you don't understand a rule then call WERA?

    Ummm, wow.
     

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