Machinists, learn me a bit

A buddy of mine has given me access to his bandsaw, MIG welder, drill press and various grinders, and has been teaching and encouraging me getting into metalworking and welding and all the cool manly shit that comes along with it. This has worked great so far but now I'm starting to find mismatches between what I can imagine and what I can do, because I have neither a lathe nor a mill.

I've been perusing a Grizzly catalog which lists all the medium-quality Chinese-made tools, and it looks pretty fairly priced and I don't really have a problem with the import stuff - all the reviews an such on YouTube seem to indicate that they're "pretty decent" as long as you take care to tune them a bit and stay away from overworking them. On the other hand, Craigslist has a good number of pretty solid-looking tools around for comparable prices... but I don't really know enough about machine tools to know what I'm getting into with a used, less-technologically-advanced, and possibly in-poor-repair unit.

What features should I look for (in either the new or used) as must-haves? What features should I consider not critical, but "ooh that's nice"? As "meh, I don't care"? A power feed capable of thread-cutting is something that'll be important to me on the lathe, for example.

More importantly for the used ones, what should I check to evaluate condition? I don't have a problem repairing the tools.. but keep in mind that I will only have that tool itself in order to make repairs.

And actually, while I'm on the topic... is there gonna be much differentiation among TIG welding setups, beyond maximum voltage/amperages? Right now I can only MIG, but I'd like to start learning TIG so I can do the fancy stuff. I had figured that welder selection would be relatively simple compared to the lathe/mill selection, but perhaps not.

 

Power feed and DRO on the lathe, for sure, especially if you need to cut threads. For welding, look into something like a Synchrowave 250 Miller. $2500 or so. will be more than enough for most applications.

 

Grizzly is disposable crap.
Lotta money for one, better off looking for low-mile cared for 1970/1980's machine.
Also, a good older/used machine will come w/ lots of tooling. Tooling is what drives the end users costs up. youll eventually spend as much for tooling as you did for the new grizzly.
i got a machine shop (geared towards gunsmithing/threading/gun-fabrication) (bridgeport/clausing/miller-tig/saws/tables/benches/etc/etc) possibly/maybe for sale this spring. pm me if interested, down the road. either way, craigslist is your best friend when it comes to finding machines. If you want new chinese, look at JET, over grizzly.

 

Chris, There is ALOT to learn there.

To start, I'd pick either welding / fabricating.......or machining.....and then focus on that for awhile. Buy good stuff for one or the other, and invest time in it.

THEN move to the other. They are individual trades that people spend years, decades, working on.

I'm assuming this is not a full-time thing for you, but part time?....like something to do after your "Real job"?

If your intent is to "Tool-up" for both, then learn as you go, that was my approach as well.......I wound up sticking to the welding side (Miller syncrowave 200, and 180 lincoln mig) and sold the Index mill I bought.

Too much to learn in my limited time available.....and I've been in the welding industry for a long time.

Anyhow, just my experience sir.....good luck with however you go about it.....fun will be had.

 

I wish that I had bought something like this when I bought my used HF lathe a number of years ago:
https://seattle.craigslist.org/oly/tls/d/olympia-craftsman-atlas-101-metal-lathe/6821002421.html

As above, the cost is in tooling, not the tool. Buy used American with stuff and spend the money up front, because getting the pieces is confusing and wastes time, money, and brain cells. I would recommend used Atlas, South Bend, Craftsman over new HF, Jet, or Grizzly.

This one feels overpriced, but a good starting point:
https://seattle.craigslist.org/est/tls/d/bellevue-craftsman-atlas-10d-long-bed/6815120963.html

Ooh ooh, this one! It says "cross feed," which to me implies powered cross feed, which is what you want. DRO can be added later
https://seattle.craigslist.org/skc/tls/d/renton-machine-lathe-9-47/6817987952.html

 

Correct. I'm a software engineer by trade, so just about as far away from the material sciences as you can get and still be the same overall type of discipline, heh.

Awesome, thanks Phil! I was looking at these but wasn't sure which were good and which weren't. That last one in Renton is particularly enticing. More than I'd wanted to spend initially, but it looks like I'd definitely be able to grow into it. The Craftsman/Atlas already has two DRO units so that may explain the price. Aren't you on your way to Mexico? Let's get together when you're back, I'd like to come check your HF one out and see in person what stuff to avoid and why, to better understand what I'm looking at with the Craigslist offerings.

 

What are your plans? What kind of parts are you thinking of making?

 

Make sure you know what headstock size you will need.....the width the barstock/etc passes through. the larger the headstock, the better.

 

have fun

http://www.lathes.co.uk/page21.html

 

IMHO I’d start with a lathe - it’s the most used tool in my shop - but it depends on what you want to do. Used American is great, especially because of the tooling issue noted above. One thing to watch for us the ability to cut metric and imperial threads - the import stuff generally has that as an option, while it requires an odd set of change gears for an imperial-based lathe.
Lots of metric threads on a motorcycle. Sure you can use a tap or die, but that gets $$$ over say M16 or so.

 

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mine (and most) doesnt do metric, which stops/ed me from doing moto stuff.......Very Good call, Chuck!

 

don't buy a new mini lathe off ebay...
sold that shit months later on craigslist for half price.
none of the dials were tight. loose as a goose forward and side to side.
cheap plastic gears... shitty motor. i could go on.

i do like my early 80's miller dial arc HF.. if i ever move it to a real shop i can switch the jumpers for 400 volt or higher

 

My input.
Find a mentor or two.
For machine tools and tooling in my mind the hierarchy is as follows:
USA, Japan, German/Austrian (possibly other Euro but I'm not familiar with them)
Taiwan (close second, not be be confused with mainland Chinese)
China/India (varies in quality greatly)

Charlies point is good. Pick one get up to speed first. New and used machine tools will require set up if not a tune up to a complete rebuild depending on state of wear or OEM quality (Chinese stuff needing the most). That's not to say they won't be usable, just not very accurate.

I went with used equipment. My first machine type tool was an old USA Rockwell drill press. Rebuilt it. There are sources for many parts, but not all so some luck plays into this. Next was an EMCO (Austria) FB2 milling machine. Refurbished that, hard to find parts. Last but not least was my Southbend 9A lathe. Complete rebuild. Descent availability for parts on used market and many new available in a specialized cottage industry. The cleaning, rebuild, tune up process is a great first step to learning machining. You learn how the machine itself works.

On Grizzly, they have the range of higher quality machines as well as lower quality machines. Their Taiwan machines are very good. They also have Chinese machines. Tooling as well from all sources. It's a learning curve for sure. An expensive learning curve (not even considering material). My Southbend lathe was bought out of Chicago and was suppose to be "plug and play", it wasn't even close. Anything you get will need work.

As stated above the best machine to start on is a lathe. Very useful and more intuitive than a milling machine for the novice.
Carefull machine tools can become as engrossing a pastime/hobby as motorcycling.

Edit: looked at the Craig's List postings. I was warned off Atlas/Craftsman lathes due to wear issues and flex with the flat ways. Plenty of better USA machines out there. Logan, Southbend, Rockwell, Monarch, for example.

 

I’d add Clausing to that list.

Good/experienced machinists can make good parts on less than perfect equipment. Newbies need all the help they can get. Rebuilding used machines does give you a good handle on what all makes them tick.

More thoughts - I’ve not used one since I’ve had my own equipment for 20 years - but some large metro areas have maker spaces where you can go learn & use their equipment before dropping $$$ on your own. Could be a good way to get your feet wet. Or take a class at the local tech school.

 

i am always looking for interns.

depending on how quick of a learner you are, you can help out in the toolshop

 

Good to know!! Thanks.

Part of the reason I'm less afraid of the Grizzly/Chinese/etc stuff is the task of tuning them up and improving them would, in effect, give me plenty of starter projects to work on and learn. As an example, This Old Tony's "Minilathe" serious on YT is about discovering the limits of, and eventually creating new gears for/improving the bearings on/etc, a $500 7x14 he picked up. But, I'm wary of trying to do all that while I'm at the same time literally trying to learn what's important... I feel like that'd be like trying to learn how to understand suspension from riding a '93 Hurricane.

 

Buy a Haas tl1 lathe. Do any thread you want.

Buy stuff once. Including tools..

 

Do you want to make stuff with the machine? or make the machine the project itself.

Personally I'd just buy this and dive in the deep end...
https://seattle.craigslist.org/est/tls/d/redmond-mitsubishi-mtc8-cnc-lathe/6823104974.html
Wish it were closer actually.

 

Holy crap, that's actually within walking distance of my house. That seems really incongruously priced, though - this is roughly the same price as the other 40yo+ manual lathes. Why?

It's also vastly more complicated than I'll ever use.. to the point that the complexity would likely become a barrier... but wow, drool.

 

Buy it and tell us . CNC lathes aren't really that complicated to run. The programs are simple, and straight forward. The opportunities to crash them though are numerous and crashes are spectacular and usually cost a pile of money

It's a weird market for stuff like that. Professional shops don't want old CNC equipment because breakdowns cost money, and parts availability is an issue. Obsolete boards, and other proprietary control and hardware stuff just isn't worth the gamble. BUT for a home shop guy who likes a challenge, and can roll up his sleeves there might be an opportunity to pick up a real diamond in the rough. Simple things like the control battery going dead can render that thing a giant boat anchor. If you have the hard copies, or a backup of the parameters it's not a big deal, but if you don't.....It's worth what it weighs.

I just found a video of that machine, and it sounds good. Not really sure why it's listed so low, but I can tell you if it were closer to me, I might be heading over to look at it. I'd figure you should double that listing price to have it sitting on YOUR floor, and maybe add that again to have it tooled up (a bit) and making chips.


It's priced the same as smaller hobby stuff because there isn't really a market for it. There's 100 guys looking for a small lathe they can run off 120v in there garage. Not many guys looking for an old obsolete CNC machine that needs 3 phase and will brown out the lights in the house when the spindle ramps up. I'd look for something with at least an 1.5" spindle bore. Typical bike related turning are axles, and steering stem work, and the through spindle is nice for parts like that. Ya, you can turn between centers, or with a steady rest, but it's just easier if you can work through the spindle. Not sure what your budget is, but this is a nice capable first lathe that you wont grow out of for a while. Priced a bit high IMO but I'm comparing that to our market here, and it varies depending on where you are.
https://seattle.craigslist.org/est/tls/d/redmond-metal-lathe-jet/6819406051.html

IMO I'd shy away from the older stuff. UNLESS you got a good deal (~ $500 with tooling) on it. One of those older atlas for $2000 is a joke compared to that jet I listed above. Ya, the jet is "double" the money, but for $2000 you're getting more than double the lathe. Ya it kills me to say it because I love the old stuff too, but a newer JET lathe is every bit as capable as an older atlas/southbend 9/myford or any other OLD hobby class machine. With better headstock bearings, higher speeds (usually), quick change gearbox, and power feeds in x and z. They also have more standard spindle noses so accessories like a collet chuck or 4 jaw can be found more easily, and the through bores in the spindle are generally bigger. It's true the don't make them like they used to, and the initial build quality of the older stuff would have been much better, but the older stuff has also been used for 40-50 years..... Evaluate quality and condition moreso than brand. Stay away from the HF class of import machines. They should come with an eyebolt so you have a nice place to tie the anchor rope right off the bat. Sure there are lots of guys that turn them into real gems. But those guys don't really value their time, and are delusional if they truly believe they were better off polishing the turd than starting off with something that was actually good from the get go. Tony is an exception.... He's doing it to make videos about it. He already has a lathe, and isn't a beginner trying to learn machining.

If you're looking for a mill, I'd look for a "Bridgeport" or any Taiwanese or American (Canadian) clone. Many made them and you'll be evaluating the condition, moreso than the brand. I'd rather have a tight "first" (Taiwanese clone) mill than a clapped out Bridgeport. They are also called a Turret mill, or Knee mill. I have an Excello. Made in Canada, and much better than a Bridgeport If you do happen upon a small rong fu type hobby mill for a good price ~500, don't be afraid to buy it. Especially if its an r8 machine and it comes with a vise and some tooling. You can always keep the tooling when you upgrade later, and sell it for what you paid. The market is always there for those types of machines. I say look for an R8 machine because most knee mills also have an r8 spindle taper unless you get into bigger ones. Whatever investment in mill tooling you start making will stay with you as you upgrade machines later. Lathe tooling tends to stay with the lathe as most lathes differ in spindle nose taper, chuck mounting bed spacing etc especially older ones.

That's enough for now. Sorry for the novel.