Kim Jong Il Dead

This is not good. I am starting to think like Dave K. Not in the same words, which provides some comfort, but similar conclusions.

 

So you're saying Dave K is suffering from a terminal case of lakanookie and is going senile?

 

We accept him! We accept him! One of us! One of us! Gooble-gobble, gooble-gobble!

 

Anyone need a back rub?

 

Well, this should come as no surprise, but the ROK has some rather severe and oppressive laws regarding political activity and criticism of the government. In particular, read through the ROK 'National Security Act'...lots of 'catch-all' provisions to stifle dissent.

There has been a growing sentiment, especially among younger people, in the ROK that the two Koreas (north and south) are deliberately kept apart by the United States. They would like to see the country united.

 

Well, historically if not for the US they would be united. And all the younger people would now be crying in the streets over the death of the "Great Leader Kim".

Not really surprising the ROK govt is still a bit authoritarian (not saying that is necessarily a good thing...), Syngman Rhee comes across as a slightly less corrupt, way more competent Chiang Kai Shek.

 

Name the country:

Allows indefinite detention, without trial, of both its perceived enemies and citizens.
Allows extrajudicial killings of its citizens.
Allows torture to be used on both its perceived enemies and citizens.
Refuses to recognize its citizens as human beings based solely on their sexuality.
Spies on its citizens using both traditional and electronic means.
Imprisons millions of its citizens based on consumption of a naturally occurring plant.
Allows its corporations to exploit immigrant workers.
Has the 5th highest rate of execution in the world.
Seizes the property of its citizens for the greater good (imminent domain).

I could go on but I think you get the gist. Freedom is an illusion.

 

Emminent Domain...

Hey...ain't we the greatest?

 

You get this gist ... cite please.

 

Well, that's right: authoritarian...and the young people in the ROK admire a thing called 'juche' (self-reliance, mastery of the world, blah blah)...in the ROK, corruption and self-loathing seems to be in vogue, so 'juche' appears to be a bright shining light, and the 'north' a symbol of resistance to anything that tries to overcome the Korean way of life...just remember what many wise men have said: 'western on the outside, eastern on the inside.' Which will prevail?

 

Why didn't you question the spying thing?

 

That one's kind of a given. It's another one I'll concede. Again, not saying I agree with it, I just accept it's a legitimate point he made. The points I questioned, I'm truly questioning as I can't recall any citizens being held indefinitely without trial or tortured or flat out killed over the course of my lifetime.

As for the immigrants, again, they sign on to do the work for mere pennies. If they allow themselves to be exploited that way, I have a hard time cranking on the corp. for taking advantage of it. We all do the same thing every day. If I can get it for cheaper, why wouldn't I?

EDIT:// As for the denial of citizens as "human beings" based on their sexuality - way overdramatized. It's not as if the gov't is forcing them to live in camps and caging them over being gay. Health insurance and tax breaks are not equated to being a "human being" or not. Again, not saying they aren't treated differently, but the overdramatized, sensationalistic crap being spouted isn't going to help win that argument.

 

What citizens are/have been detained indefinitely without trial?
None yet, but it is coming like a freight train:
http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2011/dec/20/letter-provisions-in-defense-bill-endanger/

Cite. Al-whatshisname doesn't count as he had already declared himself an enemy combatant.
Just because YOU decided he does not count does not mean its accurate. Legally, he was a US Citizen. If you can find where he renounced his citizenship it would be a different story.
On September 30, 2011 a drone strike in Yemen killed American citizens Anwar al-Awlaki and Samir Khan. Both individuals resided in Yemen at the time of their deaths. The executive order approving al-Awlaki's death was issued by the Obama administration in 2010 and challenged by the American Civil Liberties Union and the Center for Constitutional Rights in that year. The U.S. President issued an order, approved by the National Security Council that al-Awlaki's normal legal rights as a citizen should be suspended and his death should be imposed, as he was a threat to the United States. Al-Awlaki has been linked[by whom?] to the 2009 Fort Hood Massacre and with the 2009 Christmas Day bomb plot, the attempted destruction of a Detroit-bound passenger-plane.

What citizens have been "tortured"?
http://morallowground.com/2011/08/0...o-americans-tortured-by-the-u-s-army-in-iraq/

Are you claiming that "marriage" is a basic human right? Really?
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

By this argument, anyone should be allowed to do anything without any regard for laws. Cocaine is "natural" to an extent. Opium is the same deal. Pot is illegal. They are imprisoned for not following the law. They aren't being tossed in the clink for eating weeds out of their front lawn.
Both cocaine and opium (AND alcohol) require processing to become the powerful drugs that the are. Weed only requires that you pick it. By your argument, gov should be able to make any damn thing they wish illegal without justification or proof of impact for the greater good.

The workers allow themselves to be exploited. If they don't like the pay, don't do the job. I have no retort for your victim blaming here but I refuse to come down on people who practice the very thing we built this country on...trying to better your position in life. Its unfortunate that the native Americans were not strong enough to run our job stealing asses off when we showed up.

 

1) So you admit your claim was bullshit on the detaining aspect. Good start.
2) This subject has been debated here before. Regardless of his citizenship, he was a known enemy combatant of the US that was involved in military attacks against US citizens. Fail again.
3) I see they were taken prisoner, interrogated, given a trial and eventually released. Nowehere in the article does is indicate they were "tortured". Sleep deprived and cold, sure. Strike 3, you should be out, but I'll keep playing.
4) So you can't "pursue happiness" without being legally married and getting ancillary benefits? Interesting.
5) The government did do studies to justify their making pot illegal. I'm sure MR will be along shortly to argue they were incorrect conclusions, but it wasn't done without justification or proof of impact for the greater good.
6) Well shit - I don't make as much money as people doing the exact same thing I do for a different company. I'm being exploited. If it was that significant of an issue, I'd look elsewhere. The only victims in that scenario are the people that allow themselves to be victims. It ain't the big, bad company deciding what they're willing to work for.

I understand the beeb is rarely about facts, but damn ... we're just going to start making up all sorts of shit to prove our point today, aren't we? I usually think you have pretty solid posts, but the claims made in that one don't do you any justice.

 

1. you win.
2. You go with perception, I will go with the law and by the letter of the law, he WAS a US citizen and therefore should be afforded all the rights of a US citizen.
3. I see torture in this, you dont.
Shackled and blindfolded, Vance and Ertel were put in wheelchairs and rolled to padded rooms where they were interrogated by a slew of U.S. agencies. When they weren’t being repeatedly grilled by American officials, the two prisoners passed the time in 9’x9’ cells with concrete slabs for beds and bright fluorescent light blazing late into the night. The air conditioner was cranked way up but the two Americans had only their thin prison jumpsuits to protect them from freezing. They were given no blankets or sheets. Sleep was impossible. To make things worse, the prisoners were bombarded with ear-splitting music for up to 20 hours a day. Vance says Nine Inch Nails, AC/DC, Queen, Pantera and others were part of this audial assault that anyone in their right mind would consider torture.
4. In my opinion, yes, equality is part of that pursuit. Preventing gay marriage is an act of oppression IMO.
5. This is the same government that produced studies supporting global warming and that deems alcohol as less damaging and therefore legal. If you dont think big business and hate of Mexicans are the reason for Marijuana being schedule 1 you need a history lesson.
6. Its not about money, its about treatment of workers. Illegal workers ARE exploited because of the very fact that they virtually no legal recourse. Of course that is their fault and the companies that hire them and the politicians that dont enforce immigration law have no culpability at all.

Most of where we disagree comes down to opinion and perception. We view things differently.

 

Nope.
You gotta dry it.
Then clean it.

 

1) Glad we can agree on at least something.
2) I don't disagree he was a US citizen - never have. But I fully agree that the gov't was right in taking him out when the opportunity presented itself. However, your point is still valid in that he was a citizen killed by the government without a trial. I'll concede that one to you. But 1 point does not make a trend.
3) No, I do not see torture in that story. Not saying it was a pleasant time for them, but nothing in that story rises to the definition of torture.
4) Obviously something that we're not going to agree on - wash.
5) I don't need a history lesson at all. You're changing your point now - first it was just a rant about a naturally occuring plant being consumed illegally, now it's a rant against big corporations and a hate of Mexicans (because pot only has to do with them) apparently. Stop making it a moving target and maybe we can actually debate this one.
6) Now we're going to move this target to "illegal workers" versus "immigrant workers"? Words are important ... which are we going to discuss?

 

Dont mean to be a wuss here but I have to defer for a bit and come back to this later. I require myself to do 2 hours of cold calls at 1130. I promise I will come back though. Cool?

 

You forgot the one about which country has the highest imprisonment rate...

 

No wuss about getting work done. I'd be less than honest if I didn't say I've been typing while reviewing resumes all morning. I always enjoy a good debate ... whenever it may happen.