Honda continuing to nail the coffin shut ...

I gotta agree with Vince. I'm just a hack, but saying that the new honda 250 is "world level" equipment is like saying the New SV650 is "world level" equipment...just because you change the rules/cost basis for a particular class doesn't make the new equipment better. I loved my old RS125, but I also would be excited to ride the new honda....I just love the lightweight stuff. No bias here as far as 2t vs 4t, but we must be honest about what the rules are.

 

Looking at the numbers I can find on the net....it looks like the new bike weighs about 10lbs more than the old 125's and makes about 3 or 4 hp more. I suspect there is a large torque advantage in the favor of the 250, but at twice the price......meh.

 

Oi vey!

So the problem you're having, Vince, is that the rules were changed and now no longer fit what you think GP racing should be? Is that basically your beef in a nutshell?

Would it help if you knew there was more than just Honda developing bikes for Moto3?

Would it help if you knew that the Honda Moto3 bike is not a dressed up Moriwaki, but rather a brand new engine and chassis built from the ground up specifically for the purpose of racing?

Another complaint you have is you "want to see what unlimited funds can produce" not a spec class. Right?

Well, currently its called MotoGP. Enjoy.

Out of curiosity, when was the last time you actually watched a MotoGP 125 race? Or a Moto2 race? Are either one televised in the US regularly?

 

sound interesting.

although, step back: 2T's at the world level are carbureted. when was the last time you saw a carbureted 4T outside of your mower?

you cant dispute that 2T's have not had the development attention that 4T's have. that is all im gettin at.

vince

 

i have lots of problems. most have nothing to do w/ bikes. do i need to pay you to sort them all out?

am i a big fan of the 'direction' of the world championship? not really. the appeal for me has always been that it is exotic. different. as with most things on earth, it is becoming more homogenized. now we have 600 racing in every goddamned race wknd from willow to misano. how novel.

yes, i understand (hope?!) that there will be other moto3 manf. aside from honda. while i am not necessarily honda fan boy, that in and of itself is fairly meaningless to me thoe. (ref: moto 2).

do you really believe the new bike is some sort of new engineering marvel? what is on it that is new? i mean, really new? with a wee bit of embellishment, my original comment, imo, is not far off the mark: its an RS125 w/ a yammie dirtbike engine layout and RS gearbox. its not allowed to have shit that makes it go faster that the DOT allows on your streetbike. wtf kind of racebike is that, let alone cutting edge and exotic? although, i guess it is better than a ninja 250 cup class.

motogp has lots of cost 'containing' rules in place, so that does not suffice either. actually, it is a big part of why everything else has to be dumbed down. it costs alot to race 4T's, apparently.

and, i've watched every single 125, moto2 and motogp race this year. several live (not in the US). is that OK for ya? i subscribe to motogp.com. so, actually, i watch most of the practice and qualifying too. i keep telling myself to vote w/ my wallet and bag it, but i love GP. it's like fucking crack to me. i am weak. my wife doesnt like that i am nocturnal on motogp wknds, but.....

vince

 

so that would make the RS125, et al also 'world level equipment' in your book, no? lots have been on the world championship grid over the years...

vince

 

ooops. sorry. in my vein attempt to avoid emotion, i forgot to mention the whole point.

my 'problem' (although, i would prefer to use the term 'contention') is that honda is trying to convince me that a $30k mori is a good deal. i dont think it is.

if that bike were $10k, it would be smoking.
if it were $15k, i'd be quiet and maybe even dream about getting the yam equivalent if time were to offer one.

...but at $30k, its like someone is sticking their _____ in my ___.

you fill in the blanks.... but i thought my position was quite clear to begin with....

vince

 

some more food for thought:
i wonder how a danny turner tuned mori would stack up against a boner stock NSR250 (which is, according to mongo, 'world level equipment').

i wonder how much the former would cost vs. the latter.

vince

 

The new honda is nowhere near what it will take to be competetive in Moto3 with the MotoGp series.(In my opinion of course) It is a club level bike, a very expensive club level bike.

 

And just to think we've beat those bikes before with a 96 Honda. Kind of sad really...

 

I like this plan.

 

From what I have seen it appears to be a fourstroke version of the RS125. Pretty conservative power and reliability wise.

I beleive the Moto3 class at the world level will be full of stuff like this. In a much higher spec chassis. JMO

http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2011/Sacchi+introduces+Moto3+engine

 

I imagine there will be a lot of money going into the chassis as well. Add in things like data acquisition, lightweight wheels, etc. and the price is going to be quite high for a competitive Moto3 bike.

As an example, the FTR Moto2 rolling chassis goes for £74,995 (without VAT), or about $117,000. That is without the spec engine and ECU for the world GP spec bike. A less expensive Spanish CEV version is in the £40,000 range ($63,000).

The NSF250 is a bargain in comparison!

 

Apparently few of you has any idea what the potential of this motor is! I have run the simulations and 50+hp will be real easy!!

 

Saw the Ioda Racing Moto3 engine in Mugello. That thing is pure motorhead sex. Combined with a smaller lighter version of a (for example) Suter chassis and it will be an amazing race machine.

I also had conversations with 125 guys at both ends of the budget spectrum (ie 1st place and mid-pack) with regard to the rules and bikes for next year. The opinions were consistent and predictable, but when asked about the potential cost savings there was a general shrug.
Basically, they don't care what it costs. They just want to go racing.
I for one, am sad to see the 125s go away, but am excited to see what the Moto3 bikes will do.

 

Maybe so, but the engine in the NSF as delivered will not be competetive in Moto3 and the rules say that no changes are allowed. Who knows Honda may release a higher spec version fitting the rules for use in Moto3, but I don't think this is their final answer to that question. JMO

Tryce I beleive either one of us could build a engine from a conglomeration of parts that made more power with less cost. JMO

 

I agree!! The head,cam, and exhaust has so much more potential!!

It really is a cool motor...much more than most see it as. It is worlds above an MD copy!
BTW guys...it is not a YZ copy...Cannondale did it before Yamaha.