Honda continuing to nail the coffin shut ...

who said i tested, worked on or ridden one? not me. i am, however, able to read and comprehend what is said in the PR release.

my input is called an "opinion". that's what that "o" is for in "imo". something i am sure you are familiar with. mine is based on rational logic. what is yours based on?

question: do you truly believe, ANYONE will roll a stock NSR250 out onto the grid next year and be in the top 50% of the field come the end of the race? top 80%? fuck, i guarantee you dont even SEE a STOCK bike on the grid. it's fucking moto gp...not wera.

i dont gamble, but i'm tempted to put a line on that.

vince


ps: i dont post here much, but i know the routine: you're right. except, here i dont believe you are right. time will tell.....

 

Im going to put my foot in the ring on this one;

Alright, so next season $28k for a "base" GP250. Start adding on that for "works" goodies.

Currently

A base $100k for an RSA Aprilia125. Start adding on that for "works" goodies.

RSA Aprilias are NOT what America races by $$ design.....very affordable ( read CHEAP) and fun Honda RS125GP bikes that are still competitive al the way back to the 1995 models, and even a well tuned 1994 could be competitive here in the US (with the right rider).

The RSA ( formally RSW) Aprilia is and has been what World GP and european have raced for years, and if I may add..kicked the living shit out of honda for years. AT world GP level.

The NEW Honda just leveled the Cash requirement for intro riders AT WORLD GP level........club racing in America, was not part of the "business plan". (IMHO)

Imagine ALL the riders ( US as well) that can now, get on the grid next season at world GP....why? Cause Honda just lowered the "entry cost for the bike/start up package.

This is how Honda manipulated the GP market back in the early 90's. Up thru the late 90's. Remember honda only lost by 1 point with Melandri riding in 1999. So it was still a MAJOR contender then.

HONDA just leveled the playing field again, now a whole new build up of 4stroke GP technology begins.......seems to me they started MotoGP into 4 stroke,,,,,,then 250GP to 4 stroke......now 125GP to 4 stroke.....Doesnt mean Honda will win everytime.....but they do seem to always be an innovator....

 

the cost reduction is not from any honda innovation. it is from a rules package that specifically limits the cost. of course, the blinding irony to me is that the cost needs to be managed BECAUSE of 4T infiltration, read: motogp 4T's are so fucking expensive, even honda cant afford to deal with world superbikes, 250's, 125's or most national superbikes championship and still fund a field of RC212v's.....

in any case, if you applied a similar rule mindset to current 2T's, you would get the same result (lower cost). it is completely independent of engine type or manufacturer. imo, of course.

my argument is that anyone w/ an ambition to ridein motogp is still going to fork over a boatload of loot on things like trick forks, wheels, tuning, electronics, DAQ, etc, etc, etc. the guys at the front will have bikes that cost them far in excess of $30k USD...and the guy in last will have something better as well (although, admittedly closer to stock than not).

which means, that the stock bikes are NOT for moto3 grid. they are the basis. a stock bike would have performance parity w/ a mori (imo).

to satisfy tdub: put me on an NSR and put jake on a mori. who wins? :P

vince


ps: while i cant now find it, i swear that honda initially said they were going to offer a "race kit" to apply to the $30k NSR. much as they did for the RS125...which is a 100% parallel in terms of the marketing approach, imo.

 

And there sir, is why you NEVER judge a book by its cover......you might miss out on a worthwhile reading..........thats all I have been trying to point out to you and your "readers"......you guys seem to jump to conclusions to quickly.....and make decisions that could be hindering the growth of the sport.....

And I know what I know from experience and $$ spent...in fact if people knew what was really spent in 2010 on racing a "semi competitive" Aprilia and rider in 125GP....well, guys would probably stroke for sure more then a decent privateer AMA superbike effort, for sure.

 

what relevance does this have?

there is only one manf. currently 'competing' (b/c they are the only ones not going broke trying to race in motoGP?): aprilia. i'm not counting the random ktm, honda, or mahindra.

they spend as much as they can afford, to win. just like all the GP classes have historically operated (until 4T motogp essentially made that impossible due to its costs being so high).

what is your answer? and unless you are running a GP team, or perhaps accounting for one, you dont know what it costs any more than i do. but we can both guess and rely on here-say.

vince

 

i told you what my input is based on: sense. try it out some time, it's fun. but then, that wouldn't fit in w/ honda's marketing plan.....

still alot of unanswered q's. dont fear the answers mongo, embrace them!

vince

 

i'm dumbfounded as to how you can both somehow rationalize that "The NEW Honda just leveled the Cash requirement for intro riders AT WORLD GP level" by multiplying the price of their entry-level production GP bike by 2.5x, while simultaneously ignoring the tiny aspect of a completely revised rules package that might help explain the wholesale cost reductions of moto3 v. 125gp:

as one small example, from: http://www.fim-live.com/fileadmin/u...to3 regulations for 2012 version 30 April.pdf

...and you still aren't acct'ing for all the money wrapped up in the ancillary bits i mentioned previously.

so, i relent. honda is too innovative for me to grasp. i'm going back to my cast iron cylinder liners and seize-prone piston port 2T's....

vince


ps: incidentally, as was noted on the usgpru thread, there is a mandated - and significant - 'dumbing down' of the allowable technology as stipulated in the provisional rules package. shit you see on production streetbikes (e.g. variable length intake tracks, ride by wire throttle control, adjustable traction control, etc) are not even allowed. so if you really wanna see high tech lightweights, you'll need to look elsewhere....

 

Vince, dude, give it up. It's over. The era of two stroke GP racing has ended. It's a done deal. Finito. And all the holier-than-thou-two-strokes-are-better-because nonsense will not bring them back. Okay?

I personally am a two stroke fan, but you have a few things completely wrong about this whole deal.
For starters you're trying to compare the costs of a guy running a Honda RS125 at the club level (yes, USGPRU is club racing) with the cost of a professional team running a world spec 125 machine. Vince, they are not even in the same universe in terms of cost and performance. Seriously, its not even close.

Also not close is the cost of maintaining a world spec 125. They get rebuilt every time they come off the track. EVERY TIME. Practice, warm up, qualifying, race, whatever. I am basing this on first hand experience by the way.

Also, in world 125 there are only a handful of teams that even have access to all the top level parts. They are the only ones who even have a chance of running up front. Those parts are beyond expensive, they are in fact, unobtainium.

The new rules will allow many more teams to actually compete for the title. The new rules will allow many more teams to actually show up and race. The new rules will provide excellent racing. Just turn down the sound and pretend they're still two strokes and you'll love it.

 

That being said, and well stated.

Who wants to by a BAD ass, 2008 RSW World GP team bike, with a FULL season of spares ( for US racing anyways, it should last 10 weekends easy).

2 front ends. Ohlins on both...

Dual Radial and Single radial...

4 front wheels ( 2 for each front end)

2 Rear wheels.

4 sets of bodywork

Motor completely rebuilt

3 Spare cranks, rebuilt, ready to go.

3 Exhaust.

2 Carbs

all for the "going out of the 2 stroke racing business price" of only...

drum rollll please.........

$55,000usd.

Or you could buy a couple of 2012 NSF250 Rs for that price.......

 

'dude',

i'm NOT the one making irrational comparisons.

to me, as said several times, this is not a 4T vs. 2T thing. it has nothing to do w/ 125's vs. moto 3 bikes.

its really quite simple: the rules changed. the rules MANDATE the racing be cheaper (and dumbed down).

why this is not clear to you guys, is beyond me. why you think this 'fits' w/ the whole idea of GRAND PRIX racing is beyond me. if you want spec racing, get it anywhere else. i wanna see what ulimited funds can produce. not everywhere, mind you, just SOMEWHERE (i.e. grand prix).

if we applied the same mindset wrt the rules to any bikes, they would be cheaper. honda is not the saviour....the rules are (and, of course, imo they write the rules, so it all comes full circle).

continue w/ your collective insanity.

vince


ps: since it seems unclear, i am fully aware that 2T's as we have known them arent making a comeback. i also believe it is for all the wrong reasons and that there is fuck load more to be had in 2T development than 4T development. time will tell what happens next.....

 

actually, imo, that really doesnt mean shite. but you are unable (unwilling) to stop making the comparison of the two.

more meaningful: a current spec WGP 125 that you can sell me for $30k. THAT would be "not expensive in the greater scheme of things".

a $30k mori look alike? not so much.

vince

 

Your assertion that 2 strokes have more development potential than 4 strokes, well, you seem to be thinking conventionally. There are some unconventional intake systems for 4 strokes that have huge potential. (And I'm not talking about supercharging either.) I'm actually fairly excited that there will be class (Moto 3) where I have the opportunity to develop such a system.

 

Vince,

Your right, this is NOT about 4T vs 2T.........but in fact showmanship.

Go to the GP's, during the 250GPs, a whole fleet of them did NOT equal the sound of 1 MotoGP bike.

A whole fleet of MotoGP bikes, = lots of sound! Like thunder......fanfare, crowds go wild.

Now enter the Moto2 class, which replaced the 250's........LOTS of noise.

Now enter the Moto3 Class......that little 250 4T motor........its LOUD.

Open straight exhausts, = LOUD noise.

If this was whole change was "truly about" environmental issues as has been purported....then how do you bring on bikes that ADD more noise pollution...are not as exhaust gas friendly (talking about 4T, and this has been proven in many tests).....and that does NOT effect the environment?

No Vince,......In short, this is ONLY about selling more tickets, Tshirts, Banners, Advertisement,Media time,street bikes, aftermarket parts for those street bikes, etc.......big corporations are about making BIG $$$.

They dont care about what is better in technology, only what makes them more $$$.

Plain and simple, in my opinion......if your willing to look at it, as you say, and not blind yourself to seeing as it is, for what it is.