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Danny Walker is 100000% correct

Discussion in 'General' started by Robby-Bobby, Dec 4, 2018.

  1. Hoffman900

    Hoffman900 Well-Known Member

    Top 4: Factory, Factory, Privateer, Privateer. The 3rd place finisher had to run his street bike in the first race weekend, totaled the bike another, and fried the electrics in another race, all with a bike they built a month before the season started. The other had a mid season slump while they figured the tire out, but was strong when they had it figured out, and was not using the top spec electronics.

    I’m in the camp that if you changed the electronics, or even got rid of them, the same people would be finishing in the same places...
     
    418, Gorilla George and lonewrench like this.
  2. Steeltoe

    Steeltoe What's my move?

  3. RM Racing

    RM Racing Tool user

    And, amazingly, both from North Dakota.
     
  4. That’s a Honda problem, not an MA problem. I’m sure I will get flamed but yes you need people to run electronics, any superbike class you will need to. They couldn’t get the MM to work and the whole “locked out” thing, if I was a betting man I’d say something with the guys computer and how it updated. Even with a flashed ecu you still need someone skilled to get the data, interpret the data, find interactions in the data, overlay that with what the riders says, make changes to the data, etc. Yes it’s easy to program numbers, yes it’s easy to get fancy charts/ graphs, knowing what to do with all that isn’t cheap.
    It seems pretty clear to me that team went to superbike too fast and got lost in the data. The switch to Honda, well it’s not for MA to predict a glitch in Honda’s kit ecu or locked out stock one. What other option do people expect them to offer? Ever price out a Motec unit? Ever have to replace a motec dash? Not cheap. All of this coupled with the fact there is obviously something seriously lacking in that Honda makes for a bad and frustrating year. I think the MM system sucks balls compared to Motec but I also think with either you need to have a good data person and Walker just didn’t have that, that’s plain and simple. I read that article earlier in the day and it just really seemed like a lot of blaming others when he really needs to look at himself. He didn’t prepare his team with the tools to be successful. He took a Honda deal and the bike sucks not to mention the ECU limitations. it may have been the only one he could get to put him over that edge so they could go racing, I have no idea but that bikes not great, even in BSB spec it’s way behind the others with some good riders on them. I have a ton of respect for Scott, he’s a great guy and this isn’t an attack on him either. That MM stuff isn’t easy to figure out and the way they started with the Honda is not an MA problem, that’s a poor planning problem.
    If you want to go superbike racing you know the cost to get in, if you want to cut corners and not find an MM expert because your chosen OEM can’t get their sh$t together and the alternative MM system is tough to use but people do use it successfully, that’s on you.
    What was MA to do in this situation? Allow another brand of aftermarket system? That’s not the way the rest of the world is going and even if that bike was fully dialed they still didn’t have the rider to get up to the finishing positions Honda would’ve been happy with.
    Flame on.
     
    Ducti89, Hoffman900 and 418 like this.
  5. stangmx13

    stangmx13 Well-Known Member

    its a race bike, who cares whats on the production bike...

    of course its feasible to go back on electronic aids. BSB had no problem. even GP reduced their spec a few years ago.

    I suspect it is a lot of work for a series to move to a spec ECU. they need to handle supply, pricing, testing, and a ton of other issues. ppl will bitch. ppl will have technical problems. it doesnt sound fun. but thats probably the only way to reduce get real parity with electronics in motorsports.

    IMO, its not possible to force stock-based electronics into a rulebook and get some reasonable level of parity. stock and kit ECUs vary too much. flashes can be the new unobtainium and unfortunately they are much more difficult (if not impossible) to test & regulate. even if u somehow prevented unobtainium flashes, the learning curve could be steep to use them effectively.

    WSBK tried to make the factory teams share their software with their privateer teams. they do... but somehow they are allowed to lock things down because "its too complicated" for non-factory technicians. ugh.
     
  6. If that was the case this year RRF would’ve been running a stock ecu with no or minimal flash :)
     
  7. StaccatoFan

    StaccatoFan My 13 year old is faster than your President

    GREAT STATE! ;-)

    Not ONE corner worth a damn in the whole state...how they learned to corner low is amazing.
     
    BigBird likes this.
  8. Hoffman900

    Hoffman900 Well-Known Member

    Exactly how I interpreted it too.
     
  9. knedragon29

    knedragon29 Well-Known Member

    I for one would no way in hell trust electronics going around the TT , I'm not sure I could even trust my own wrist going around that place let alone what that would do to the pucker factor!!
     
  10. Hoffman900

    Hoffman900 Well-Known Member

    Disagree.

    Electronics are why it’s really rare to die on an airplane. I trust them way more than a carbureted bike.
     
  11. Robby-Bobby

    Robby-Bobby Steeltoe’s Daddy

    You can justify it all you want. And I wouldn’t exactly call Herrin a privateer even though he wasn’t technicallly Factory. His team owner has built competitive MotoGP machines. Lol.

    If y’all are happy and content with small grids and less spectators than Vintage racing then by all means, keep on keeping on.

    However, other professional orgs have “leveled the playing field” and are seeing great racing with lots more bikes, more sponsors, and even more competition.

    When the start have to align just right for Josh fucking Herrin to win a race something is up.....

    If we didn’t have Tim Estensen stepping up and actually caring more about Jd then I can guarantee you he wouldn’t have stepped in to help attack and that team would have likely stepped back away.....
     
    VFR#52, backcountryme and Shocker like this.
  12. Hoffman900

    Hoffman900 Well-Known Member

    Everyone else can do it, so why couldn’t RR? They stuck by their guy, but maybe this just isn’t his bag and should have hired someone outside to help.

    Westby got a win, podiums, pole positions without the full electronics package. If it weren’t for some bad luck, they were in a position to win a couple races. I seem to remember a pole and a second place in the dry at RAtl. He probably would have won the second race too if not for some bad luck. Their success wasn’t a fluke.

    RR’s problems with the Honda aren’t in isolation. The BSB and WSBK teams struggled with it.

    RR was in position to actually have some good finishes, but Cam would crash. It seems to me he crashed out at some point almost every weekend. Not a slight on him, but he needed to produce results and instead put it into the gravel trap more often than not. Bobby Fong came in too little / too late.

    Most vintage races I see are won by a rider like a minute ahead of second place. Money matters way more in vintage racing... a decent rider on one of those Minnovation NYC Norton’s will run circles around pretty much everything, and those bikes just require you writing a big check $$$. I know guys involved in those Isle of Man Classics - people are casting their own cylinder heads and cases. Joe Schmo can’t compete with that.

    I don’t know any of the players involved, or have a stake. I do wish they were returning. However, all this article reads to me like the student who failed a test and is blaming the instructor, while others were able to get A’s and B’s. They either put the work in or they sought out the appropriate help. That’s not MotoAmerica’s problem.
     
    KneeDragger_c69 likes this.
  13. backcountryme

    backcountryme Word to your mother.

    Most of you missed the real point. Look at the BSB and Australian grids. We have 18 bikes lining up. Bring the rules spec down to where we can get more local fast guys in the races. Build the grid size. That will help bring the fans. The World of Outlaw sprintcar sieries only has a double handful of full time traveling racers. But because of their rules package they regularly have over twice as many cars at a race. Fans show up to see the stars, and for the off chance that the local boys can beat a few of the stars.
     
    Gonzo523, VFR#52 and pscook like this.
  14. Hoffman900

    Hoffman900 Well-Known Member

    Travel is the biggest cost. The U.K. can fit in like the NE United States.

    An engine for a WoO car is a $50k purchase, even for a local guy. If some of the car guys put their money into bikes, you would have big grids. Car racers make the bike racers look like peasants with how much things cost in those circles. Hundreds of people spending big bucks in those venues, same with sports car racing. Go to a SCCA club race, and you can probably find almost two dozen people who could write a $100k check for a Superbike...

    I think Josh Herrin proved it’s more to it than the bike in the season opener. It’s not the electronics that are keeping the local club racer from beating guys like Cam, Toni, Mathew, Josh, etc. Looking at lap times, riders like JD, Hayden, Valentine could beat most non pro Superbike riders on Supersport 600s. Blaming the electronics is a cop-out. IMO.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018
    ts199 and ekraft84 like this.
  15. ekraft84

    ekraft84 Registered User

    Agreed, for the most part here.

    I don't disagree about the electronics situation in the article, but as mentioned - it's not just that. Sure, bring costs down. Keep OEM's happy. Fill the grid. Everyone wants that.

    However the comparisons to BSB are absolutely, 100%, not apples to apples. Never will be.
     
  16. BigBird

    BigBird blah

    At the end of the day, motorcycling and heck even motorsports as a whole is a dying sport, at least in the US. Especially motorcycling, where it's not a primary mode of transportation for 99.999%. The average age of a rider is only increasing, and these young folks aren't interested unless they can do it on their cell phone. You can put showroom bikes, have close racing, Marc Marquez and Valentino Rossi in MA and it still won't show up on ESPN.

    When all of that changes, then a motorcycle series has a chance here.
     
    ts199 likes this.
  17. Dave K

    Dave K DaveK über alles!

    It's the same old shit that you hear in every fringe sport. "Why can't we get pro lacrosse on NBC?!?!" "Why doesn't CBS show WNBA?" "ESPN shows cornhole but won't show Indycars!"

    I couldn't care less if NBC were to show motorcycle racing. The show wouldn't be as indepth and, let's be honest, as great as what BEIN does. We don't need NBC and other than channel flips, won't bring in any more viewers than a sports channel up there in the channel numbers.
     
  18. Robby-Bobby

    Robby-Bobby Steeltoe’s Daddy

    Except that’s just not a valid excuse any longer.....

    Super cross and Flat track is GROWING. And no it’s not just because “you can see the whole race”.
     
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  19. Hoffman900

    Hoffman900 Well-Known Member

    Indian helped boost flat track, IMO. The more popular something gets, the more money pours in, and the more money matters. If all the factories had their hands in it, do you think it would be cheap? What’s it cost to run a front running MX bike?
     
    VFR#52 likes this.
  20. Robby-Bobby

    Robby-Bobby Steeltoe’s Daddy

    NBC sports shows flat track and has added airtime this year. Aft and nbc has shown the viewership increases as well. Aft actually put out a package for racers to use for sponsorships.

    You’re simply just wrong. 8 years ago flat track was on its deathbed. Now it’s on NBC, with big sponsors, more teams, and guess what, a level playing field with multiple winners.
     
    VFR#52 and Steeltoe like this.

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