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Brake then gas then turn

Discussion in 'General' started by Ra.Ge. Raptor, Jul 16, 2019.

  1. racesbikes

    racesbikes WTB a Size 50/60 Race Suit

    I’m not sure if I understand what you are saying?

    In the video isn’t Dave Moss saying that “brake, then gas, then turn” is wrong and that “methodology” of going through a corner is the bad habit that street riders must break on the track?

    I think his videos are interesting. Maybe not gospel, but there is always something to learn from him if I listen.
     
  2. Ra.Ge. Raptor

    Ra.Ge. Raptor wanna_be_fast

    No. He's saying the exact opposite, that since the track doesn't change and you do not run into oncoming traffic, oil spills etc you can utilise the "brake, gas, turn" methodology
     
  3. JCW

    JCW Well-Known Member

    His latest video



    He's smart. Go where the riders and customers are. A lot more new riders out there than salty old veteran racers...
     
  4. He’s a very nice guy, no doubt about that. I’m sure serial killers are nice too but I’m
    Not going to hang out with them- well maybe but not let them in my house :). The riders I’ve seen him work with (who paid him and paid him well), he literally had all 3 of their bikes to an almost unrideable state. 2 of these guys are fast experts, mid pack MotoAmerica 600 folks. Other was a very quick novice who got banged up and ended up hanging up The leathers. 1 of the guys went to Lenny and the other two to Tman after. I also know there is more than one way to skin a cat when setting up suspension but if I hear the guy say “go try this and tell me better or worse” I’d lose my f ing mind. Obviously some changes you go the wrong way, that happens but every damn time. My 7 year old can turn a clicker if it’s a 50/50 shot. And by the feedback of the riders it was less than 50. All he focused on was sag and looking at the tire. Yes those are factors but sometimes you don’t care what a tire looks like after a sprint race, you care if it has grip. Not every tire is going to be glass smooth at the end of every race at every track. He was so worried about that stuff that the riders were so far off their pace of course the f ing tire looked good.
     
    GixxerBlade, Shocker, Laz and 2 others like this.
  5. JCW

    JCW Well-Known Member

    good stuff right there...
     
  6. Dave is a really good dude, and a lot of help. He was on the WitchKraft Endurance crew when Eddie and I (and Steve Palella) did the Endurance race at the GNF a few years ago.

    Because I’m about 50-60lbs heavier than Eddie (we rode Eddie’s bike), Dave worked hard on finding a compromise setup that was decent for both of us. During Pit Stops, Dave would concentrate on making suspension changes. It worked. On a bike not ideal for either of us, we were both able to put down good laps and make the tires last.

    Say what you want, but Dave knows some shit.

    I can ensure you, he is FULLY aware of the importance of trail braking. He is more experienced (and probably faster) than the majority of this forum.

    I didn’t watch the video, but I am sure it is targeted at riders new to track riding. You can only give new riders so much information. Overload them with multiple bike inputs and strategies at the beginning, and they will crash out...and maybe never return.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
    Trent, gixxerboy55 and 5axis like this.
  7. blkduc

    blkduc no time for jibba jabba

    You might want to watch it, your comment will change. He is setting up a new rider for a frustrating learning curve. Your comment about not giving too much information to new riders is exactly what he's doing. It's 50/50 - wrong information and too much.

    The wrong part is already talked about here and is going to confuse the hell out of the rider and set him up for failure. The rider is going to have to relearn everything after spending time trying this garbage technique. He might be a nice guy but holy cow that was terrible. I'm actually surprised it was that bad. A suspension guy telling people to enter a corner with the front end completely unloaded because there is no trail braking is mind bogglingly stupid and dangerous. He just told that brand new rider to never trail brake. That new rider is now going to go out and learn a bad technique and when relearning will have to learn all new inputs and reference points. Time lost on his learning curve!

    The too much part is trying to get the new rider to read tire wear. Don't ever tell a brand new track rider to adjust their riding to try and make the tire wear look a certain way. You might as well tell them to just lean harder and really work on dragging a knee because that's all that matters. Instead, how about learn the fundamentals first and clear a bunch of confusing garbage out of your head so you can focus on the basics.

    Rant over,
    :beer:
     
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  8. Eddie was not one of the riders I was referring to but wonder why Eddie didn’t keep him working on his stuff? Didn’t he switch over to working with Lenny Albin or someone else after that timeframe? Either he was not available, really expensive or... just sayin.... there’s a reason people go back to folks like TMan, Lenny, etc.
    since you love history so much Brooke, next time you see Aaron Yates ask him what the sag numbers on his bikes usually were :)
     
  9. Right on which your right on. I agree with your points. Teach the fundamentals and adjust those accordingly, you don’t teach different fundamentals. Before I get flamed yes I do know there are a lot of very effective drills you can do on the track that kind of counter act my statement but I’m not talking about those and either is he.
     
    blkduc likes this.
  10. TLR67

    TLR67 Well-Known Member

    I met Dave a few times.. First time I was cooking a big boil at Barber and about 50 people were partying their heads off.. I welcomed him in and chatted a bit.. can’t remember about what cause I was Hammered.. seemed like a nice guy and that weekend he was spending the whole time on Pit wall by our pit communicating with his customers. That showed a lot there. I wish him success in the future!
     
  11. motoracer1100

    motoracer1100 Well-Known Member

    I’ve always seen suspension guys get out a tape to measure sag with the rider both on and off the bike . This guy appears to just push down on the bars a few times and then set it for feel
    ( for him ) not sure how that works properly for the rider though
     
  12. Newsshooter

    Newsshooter Well-Known Member

    Dave's a good guy, I've raced with him/ against him more than a few times. He's pretty fast for an old guy, he's done times on his VFR400 that would qualify for an AMA 600 race in the past. :) Don't always agree with what he teaches on track.
     
  13. Not sure what the reason is for that, but on that subject, contrary to a lot of people, I have personally never cared about or paid attention to sag. I can’t tell you what my sag numbers are, and I am sure Livengood can’t either.

    I’ve never bothered with how much a bike squats sitting in the pits. If you went by sag numbers, I’m sure my bikes are way oversprung. But I know how I want them to act/feel on track.

    IMO, sag is useful for someone who has absolutely no idea where to begin. Like if someone has never rolled a tire on track before and doesn’t know where to begin. For me, I’ve never paid attention to it.

    Other opinions may vary.
     
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  14. Ra.Ge. Raptor

    Ra.Ge. Raptor wanna_be_fast

    Fast rider :apple
    Proficient rider coach: orange

    You already know that, I'm just pointing it out
     
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  15. stangmx13

    stangmx13 Well-Known Member

    sag is useful if you have no idea what springs and total preload are in the bike. thats y it can be used by trackside tuners that work on anything and everything. hell, its all but required to get a quick and ez idea of the chassis position. but once u know those things, the chassis position is defined by springrate / preload. so sag becomes unnecessary.
     
  16. Phanuel

    Phanuel Well-Known Member

    Dave talks about throttle settling the chassis and improving front grip while entering the turn.

    I don't know what physics supports this as you wheelie a bike by giving it throttle and pivoting the whole thing through the rear axle. And I'm pretty sure wheelies save front tire wear.

    I just go to him occasionally when he's the suspension guy at the trackday I'm at and get him to set or check the settings on stuff when I get it rebuilt.

    He even talks about having to switch to heavy trail braking in his RSV4 vs Pani V4 comparison video.

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
     
  17. Wheel Bearing

    Wheel Bearing Professional low sider

    T Man does my stuff and hasn't checked sag to this day.
     
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  18. Shocker

    Shocker Well-Known Member

    Same here. He set me up based on how I ride and how I want the front end to feel, not the sag.
     
    Gorilla George likes this.
  19. -\_(“/)_/-
     
  20. I just wanted to try to make that dude. And damnit mine doesn’t look right.

    Whycome I can’t make that dude? Is it because my phone doesn’t have all the buttons?

    Fuck. My day is ruined.
     
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