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Anti Seize

Discussion in 'Tech' started by Prospect, Apr 18, 2019.

  1. Prospect

    Prospect Hayai

    Alright, I've talked to 3 experienced mechanics and they each swear by their opinion (as usual). The question is what kind of anti seize to use on titanium oil drain bolts/caliper bolts.

    Copper, nickel and silver; I have a vote for each.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. TurboBlew

    TurboBlew Registers Abusers

    none?? Do the bolts specify anti seize?
     
    zrx12man likes this.
  3. drop

    drop Well-Known Member

    Copper
     
  4. jd41

    jd41 Well-Known Member

    Copper
     
  5. kman0066

    kman0066 Well-Known Member

    Unless it's something you're worried about crazy temperatures or contamination, copper or nickel will do the job. Nickel can handle more heat and offer less contamination risk, but we're talking temps not seen on a motorcycle, so no noticeable difference between the 2 to you and contamination would be a risk in something like air/fluid lines.

    Wait, just saw you mentioned oil drain plug. I'd go with none or a light dab of grease on that unless you just want to add some copper/nickel anti-seeze to your oil in a creative way. Anti-seeze on the caliper bolts if they're not already coated with something.
     
  6. senate8293

    senate8293 Active Member

    Loctite heavy duty or just a dab of grease would work too
     
  7. beathiswon

    beathiswon Well-Known Member

    I don't see any need to put anything on caliper or drain plug threads for a racing bike. These get removed and screwed back in often enough not to worry about.
     
  8. Prospect

    Prospect Hayai

    I see what you mean.

    Thanks for all the feedback guys. Will go with very little copper on the threads for peace of mind.

    I that a good thing, maybe more HP? :D
     
  9. Mechdziner714

    Mechdziner714 More Gas Less Brakes

    Why do you feel the need for anti-seize on an oil drain plug? Never even heard of that...find something else to be overly OCD about.
     
  10. pscook

    pscook Well-Known Member

    Also, oil drain plugs are historically over-tightened, causing them to strip the threads or crack the oil pan. Anti-Seize increases the chance that the plug will be over-tightened due lubricating the threads.

    The oil in the oil pan threads should be ample lubricant to prevent seizing the threads due to corrosion or heat,.
     
    Steeltoe, TLR67, zrx12man and 4 others like this.
  11. Spitz

    Spitz Well-Known Member


    Galling. I wouldn't be against putting a little on, you safety wire them anyway.
     
  12. TurboBlew

    TurboBlew Registers Abusers

    Im a big fan of the stahlbus drain valve. Yeah its $50 but it provides convenient way to dump your oil frequently and never have to retorque a drain bolt again. Added bonus is you can take an oil sample without dropping the pans contents and do pretty tidy oil changes sans removing the filter.
     
    YoshiHNS likes this.
  13. Banditracer

    Banditracer Dogs - because people suck

    :stupid:
     
  14. One2

    One2 Well-Known Member

    Loctite is a form of anti seize also. This comes from the Titanium God himself, Pete Lidster.

    I try to use anti seize or loctite on all my Ti bolts.

    As for anti seize on the Ti drain bolt, just put it on base of the bolt. Been doing so for years with no issues.
     
  15. tophyr

    tophyr Grid Filler

    For pretty much any non-aluminum bolt into an aluminum hole, what you want is actually zinc anti-sieze. For aluminum bolts into aluminum holes, you want aluminum anti-sieze, if you use any at all.

    There are three separate processes people commonly lump all together as "galling" when talking about bolts:
    • Actual galling: Galling is a wear process that occurs when two materials are slid against one another under pressure and without lubrication. Galling does not occur when the materials in contact aren't moving, so bolts don't gall over time - it happens on either installation or removal (usually removal) of the bolt. Galling happens when there's too much friction between the sliding materials and they begin to "grab" chunks off each other. These chunks then cause more friction and the process cascades very rapidly to result in deposition of one material onto the other - for bolts, this usually means ripping one of the sets of threads off. Galling can be prevented by lubricating the surfaces (usually not a good idea for bolts, as this alters torque values) or reducing the amount of pressure they're under (aka, not over-torqueing).
    • Contact welding: Not actually all that different from forge welding, contact (technically "diffusion") welding is a process that happens when metals are pressed together under high pressure and high temperature, when the metals are not moving relative to one another. Contact welding does happen over time. The process can still happen if the metals aren't red-hot, but there is a minimum temperature - it's not going to happen to oil plugs or frame bolts, for example. Brake caliper bolts and spark plugs are just about the only threads I can imagine this happening to.
    • Galvanic corrosion: When two different metals are placed in contact with an electrolyte (basically any liquid that can conduct electricity), they literally form a battery. One of the metals becomes a cathode, and the other becomes an anode. Whichever metal is the anode will suffer from corrosion problems.
    Anti-sieze prevents the first one (actual galling) by providing lubrication, the second one (contact/diffusion welding) by acting as a contaminant, and the third one (galvanic corrosion) by including some metal dust in its paste that is more anodic than the metals it is applied to.

    The third one is where selection of anti-sieze gets tricky: The metal dust in the anti-sieze paste acts as a sacrificial anode and is slowly consumed. The metal must be chosen so that it is more anodic than the more-anodic of the two metals it's protecting. If you choose a filler metal that is less anodic (for example, copper anti-sieze on aluminum), then the anti-sieze will actually be contributing to galvanic corrosion at the joint. I used to use copper anti-sieze on my stainless brake caliper bolts into aluminum calipers, for ages - and I always had this weird mysterious white powder and deposits on the bolts. That white powder, it turns out, was corroded aluminum which I had been encouraging by my use of copper anti-sieze.
     
    jd41, emry, Prospect and 1 other person like this.
  16. Prospect

    Prospect Hayai

    That was fantastic info, thanks a bunch for taking the time to write it out!

    To clarify another point, so the actual oil is not an electrolyte in itself (it's an insulator supposedly) but the metal debris/carbon from combustion that finds its way into it, is what makes it an electrolyte, correct?
     
    tophyr likes this.
  17. tophyr

    tophyr Grid Filler

    That sounds like pretty good logic to me, though I don't know for sure. I would still expect even contaminated motor oil to be a very good insulator... water is the fluid we more commonly have to worry about for corrosion purposes.
     
    Prospect likes this.
  18. Prospect

    Prospect Hayai

    Agreed.

    I guess that ruins any argument for the application of Loctite/threadlocker to be used as anti-seize. I've seen quite a number of proponents for its application as anti-seize but I doubt it can prevent the three types of corrosion you referenced.
     
  19. _indy

    _indy Well-Known Member

    Monty the answer is none with a fresh new crush washer.

    Think your thinking about galvanic corrosion. Caused by dissimilar metals, time and rain will cause this. But I sure hope the oil is changed frequently enough that this won't be an issue.

    As far as "electrolyte"
    NOUN a liquid or gel that contains ions and can be decomposed by electrolysis, e.g., that present in a battery physiology
      • (electrolytes)
        the ionized or ionizable constituents of a living cell, blood, or other organic matter.
     
  20. zrx12man

    zrx12man Captain Amazing

    Wet vs. dry thread torque values are a much more real factor when discussing application of a very effective lubricant like Never-Seez onto threaded fasteners with a torque spec, like on a racebike. Most racers I've known are diligent enough with regular disassembly to avoid the need for this by checking their shit more than once a year anyway.

    Torque specs are radically different when you lubricate threads:

    https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/torque-lubrication-effects-d_1693.html\

    Also a useful technical resource on threaded fasteners:

    https://pdhonline.com/courses/s247/s247content.pdf

    My OCD routine with threaded racebike fasteners (not specifically requiring Loctite) was to clean and dry the male and female threads, very carefully chase the female threads with a tap and the male threads with a die, clean thoroughly with carb cleaner then assemble once completely dry to correct torque per the manufacturer's service manual. I can't say if it was the most technically correct method, but in 14 years we never had a fastener back out once, nor caused a stripped thread. Oh, and safety wire anything you're serious about not moving.
     

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