1974 Yamaha TZ750 For Sale - Unrestored, Mint Original

but in all reality... its not that good, nor is it that rare. it CAN be cool, you CAN build a dope ass bored out ported motor and put a dry clutch on it and all the gizmos, but THAT bike is kinda wack as is. i just wonder what this market is gonna do in 30 years when nobody was even alive when 2-strokes were being raced any more to be nostalgic collectors. i guess there will always be somebody for it, but man this ain't it. you can get a nice 4DP for that price, there's no comparison.

 

Nobody is going to modify that low mileage RZ350. Doing so would absolutely destroy the whole reason for paying a premium for it in the first place. This is most likely going into some guys collection of Yamahas (the guy who has to have one of each) and will remain stock and get ridden sparingly.

The market will most likely soften in 30 years. Just as most all previous era collector vehicles have followed the same predictable value curves: new > depreciation > flat at the bottom of the depreciation curve for a while > slight appreciation due to attrition shrinking the available supply of good examples > certain special models going stratospheric > a rising tide floats all boats and even junk examples trade for decent money > a general market stabilization > a slow decline in value for most examples as the market shrinks due to lack of direct personal association with vehicles of that era. The crème de la crème (low volume, historically significant, etc.) will always retain higher values and do better than mass produced examples. The same thing happened for brass era cars, then 1920s-1930s full classics, then 1950s American iron like ‘55 Chevy Bel Air, then 1960s-70s muscle cars. Now cars and bikes of the 1980s-2000s are having their turn in the spotlight. But it won’t last, either.

1950s-60s British bikes used to be all the rage. Now they’re falling by the wayside (except perhaps certain Vincents). Honda CB350 were somewhat popular 20 years ago as cheap bikes to tinker with following the resurgence of cafe racers and relatively healthy AHRMA and WERA Vintage race fields. Now they’re hardly raced or street ridden anymore. Every era gets its chance in the spotlight and then eventually fades away with few exceptions.

 

The thing is though, in this case there actually weren't many of that particular bike made.

There had to be 200 built to meet FIM F750 rules and I doubt if Yamaha made more than that of the 700. The next year it was a full 750 and had a bunch more modifications.

I don't know how many genuine TZ700's are left in original condition, I bet it's less than a handful.

 

i was talking about the RZ350 above, just in case. Not the TZ700/750's. not questioning the legitimate nature of collecting those.

 

I was looking at my friend's TZ750 this morning. His has straight stingers. Can't imagine how loud it is. He's been told the lower chambers with the flat spot for ground clearance crack early and often.

EDIT: His doesn't have a high pipe either.

 

Twin shock bike or mono shock? Stock pipes or replacements? And with all due respect to the OP. Back when I was selling Yam parts at A&D Motors & World of Ruttman in the 70s I swear the fiche card for that year bike said 74 TZ 700 but after a search today it says TZ750A. I couldn't find the 75 or 76 fiche for that bike, but the 77D model shows the cross over pipe. But again I did smoke a ton of weed in those days

 

Twin shock. I have no idea if the pipes are stock or not.

 

Why are Porsche 911's seemingly immune to this "Slow Decline in value"?

 

Porsche 911 in general are somewhat unique in the marketplace. They’re probably the most recognizable, most iconic sports car ever made (for many reasons) second perhaps only to the Chevrolet Corvette (which ironically suffers in terms of value due to its higher popularity/ production numbers). In terms of brand strength, Ferrari eclipses Porsche (they’re up there with Apple, Marlboro, Nike and Coca-Cola). But in terms of customer demand, Porsche eclipses Ferrari by several orders of magnitude. The Porsche 911 is uniquely premium, niche and cool and inhabits a relatively unique place in a global market.

Demand for most 911 remains strong and supply remains scarce (although there are always exceptions). Most Porsche 911 customers tend to buy and hold. Yet there are still tons of cheap 996 Cabriolet out there that have remained relatively low and very flat for a long time (with rare exception for certain examples like mint 996 Turbo Cab X50). So while a rising tide floats all boats, there are still bargains to be had if you’re willing to broaden your horizons and buy something less popular. We are unlikely to see that general softening of 911 values long term so long as enough people continue to think they’re cool and useful and worth collecting. But look at the 356 as a precursor to what might happen with certain 911 as they also get older. The 356 is still eminently cool. But more young collectors are into newer 911. So the 356 has likely peaked as current generation of elderly owners die off and is in the slow decline phase. Thats not to say 356 prices won’t ever increase. The best of the best examples (very early cars, Carrera, factory race cars, cars with celebrity provenance, etc.) will still be sought after and highly valued. But average examples probably won’t beat CPI or inflation as most people buying old Porsches are buying newer 911s (and other newer models) that are more closely aligned to their own life story. Similarly, a ‘73 Carrera RS still has strong value. But average examples like a ‘75 911 Carrera 2.7 are in the general softening stage as demand isn’t as strong as people look at opportunity costs. Most would rather buy a 964 or 993 for the same money. The main thing propping up values of less desired examples is the strong businesses of making 6-figure restomods.

https://www.classic.com/insights/porsche-market-mid-year-2023/

 

Values were always rising or stable(for the most part) 911's were always touted as the car that doesn't depreciate.., what happened here? '12

 

Global demand picked up as we exited the Great Recession. But supply had not yet increased to meet the greater demand. So prices increased. But that was all very predictable. Like I said, at some point the cars start to appreciate after being pretty steady at the bottom of their respective depreciation curve. The only variable is how long they stay there and how quickly they appreciate again (and how much) before resetting again.

I think 2012 was the end of the 997.2, which saw very low production numbers. It was also the beginning of the 991, which was significantly more expensive when new yet still relatively hard to come by.

A rising tide floats all boats, so people who couldn’t get a new 911 of their dreams looked at the secondary market. One must take a wholistic approach when examining 911 values as there is a pecking order that determines relative values. For instance, a 996 GT3 will never be worth more than a comparable 997 GT3, a 996 Turbo will never be worth more than a comparable 993 Turbo, etc. One must always look at the overall market and opportunity costs. It’s the same deal with mid-engine V8 Ferraris. There’s a pecking order for 308/ 328/ 348/ 355/ 360/ 430/ 458/ 488/ F8. And at what point does someone buy a new Maserati MC20 instead of a used Ferrari 488? I’m buying neither and instead am hunting for a cheap V12 Aston.

 

I'm quasi-hunting for a 87'-97' manual Carrera RWD hardtop coupe for a project. I don't really care about the color or interior, mostly just after a clean title, no rust, and the transmission. Everything else would be replaced anyways and doesn't matter. They ARE getting quite ridiculous though, very ridiculous. COVID made it way WAY worse. If anyone knows of anyone with an inoperable one, particularly a 993 coupe, feel free to put me in touch. Or even an Auto if its enough of a steal price and I'll just find a G50 haha.

Funny story about that chart above... my buddy had a (i think?) 93' 964 Turbo, black on black. He did a few minor things to it but all high level parts... Volk wheels, Moton coilovers, Sparco seats, a 4pt cage, GT2 spoiler, exhaust... nothing major. I think he sold it around 2010 or 2011 for like $40k? Old dorky boomers with tshirts tucked into their jean shorts were giving him shit for modifying it at all, and it got him LESS money. I think now that car untouched is worth like $230k. So ridiculous...

 

You're describing my b-i-l. He had an '88 turbo. Big turbo, ported heads, big intercooler. Shot flames out the back. It had boxed rockers, which were a thing but not well loved 20 years on. He got high 30s at about the same time. He heard the guy sold it years later for $125k after sourcing standard rockers.

I drove it once and just didn't get it. I had an Esprit S4s at the time and thought that was 10X more fun. Even my b-i-l admitted the Porsche felt like a truck compared to my Lotus.

To Steve's point, I just don't think the cars have reached the other side yet. Today's rich dude in his 50s had a mid-80s 911 poster on his wall as a kid. Next to Farrah Fawcett.

 

Classic sledgehammer versus scalpel paradigm. Or blonde vs. brunette. Or stout vs. ale. The early 911 Turbo is a generally awful driving experience. But they remain popular and expensive because of the pecking order (being at the top of the range for that era 911 street cars), their historic significance and family lineage (Porsche was one of the first mfrs. to really embrace the turbo era and the model continues to be top dog today) and because of their mystique/ legend/ widowmaker reputation/ cool factor (they’re difficult cars to drive well due to insane turbo lag, they kept getting better with each new generation, further cementing their reputation as being the “best” 911 to get).

So just like a Honda CR500 and Yamaha TZ750 are terrible motorcycles for most motorcyclists to actually use for many reasons, they’re both bikes that lots of motorcyclists desire because of the cool factor. In some ways for certain people, the more dangerous and difficult to use, the better. But coveting something and actually spending your own hard earned money are two different things.

Correct. People with disposable income and a penchant for nostalgia are now demanding these cars. Ergo their prices rise. Eventually, those people die and what younger generations think are cool will likely be different. Some vehicles transcend generations (1960 Ferrari 250 GT SWB, McLaren F1) while others don’t (1925 Packard Eight). The Porsche 911 has great potential for that ability to transcend generations and remain evergreen. But not every sub-model of 911 will be equally popular or valuable. Again, there is a pecking order.

Much has been written about younger generations not picking up the torch and carrying it in regards to automobile and motorcycle ownership. However, despite very obvious generational trends that are concerning for vehicle mfrs. and bankers, there are still plenty of younger enthusiasts out there. But what they’re buying (or renting) is often different. Maybe instead of a motorcycle they’re saving up for an e-bike that can go 45mph. Or they’re spending time and money on a high-end racing simulator instead of racing in real life.

 

(Turd in fan),,,, that chart was 1973 911's,,,my bad sorry.
https://jalopnik.com/finally-a-chart-that-shows-when-porsche-911s-were-most-1848104737
My thinking was/is I see all 2T's going the Porsche route,
some models like the TZ750, RG500, are like air cooled 911's,
Some models like liquid cooled 911's, only caveat is they ceased 2T production long ago, not Porsche's.
2T supply is *fixed* so supply doesn't affect prices as much as demand, which will go up/down, but never disappear.
Just as someone years from now will want a 930 Turbo, there are only a few, even less for sale and in no way will they be 10K.
I see the 2T's as only increasing and leveling money wise,,, well,, until there are none left.

 

Like Freedomgli and others have eluded to, the collector market seems to be in two parts; investor and enthusiast, which ties into supply and demand and partially driven by age group appeal. 50 years ago, Model-T Fords were quite valuable, especially parts because so many nostalgic owners were restoring their childhood rides. Then that group passed away or could no longer participate in the hobby, so sold out - supply skyrocketed, demand fell, and prices went into the toilet. Same with the various era's of bikes.

Kids today (I say that as a 70-yo) are growing up in the age of plug-in vehicle diagnostics and repair, and uber-reliable machinery that is basically unrepairable by the private owner. In some instances, it is against the law to repair new(er) cars because of pollution equipment. The 'older' generations grew up with our heads under the hood or on our hands and knees adjusting carbs, setting points, decarbonizing heads, replacing water and fuel pumps, clutches, brakes and general maintenance involving fuel, oil, electrical, and mechanicals; we all knew exactly how our vehicles functioned. First car I owned my dad and I put in a set of rod and main bearings out in the garage...

Recently, the collectable, rare, and unique cream is rising to the top, but the common classics that appeal to the enthusiast market are falling off the radar; supply and demand. IMO, bikes like the Vincent Shadow, SS90/100 Brough, the Root-beer Z1's, and the Sandcast CB750 will remain investments long after interest in classics and notable vehicles dies off sort of like paintings and artifacts (well, some of these old bikes are artwork within themselves). The younger/youngest generations are strapped to mainstream ICE's; it almost takes a trip to the dealer to get the seat off a bike or add windshield washer fluid to their car.

On the TZ700/TZ750 nomenclature, Yamaha designated all the 4-cylinders as TZ750; check the copies of Import Document and MSO in the auction pictures - TZ750 is the legal and official Factory designation regardless of displacement listed from day one. The biggest limitation to performance was the underslung, slab-sided early pipes - going to 750cc's did little to enhancing performance; TZ750 raiders and races have come to find, the biggest gains in performance is in the pipes. In 1975, Kel Carruthers the privateer engineered the 'Crossover' pipes to finally increase chamber volume that was compromised when volume was reduced to fit all 4 pipes under the bike.

The early hand-made Carruthers crossover pipes left the stock pipes in the dust, and when Yamaha introduced the mono-shock D/E/F, they enlisted Kel as designer, and worked closely with him to get it right; which they did. The big advantage to the 750 cylinders came because of porting and piston design, not cylinder volume - crossover pipes on a '700' motor was faster than a 750 with stock pipes. Also the slab-sided underslung pipes destroyed themselves and blew the sides out in short order. Few sets of OEM down-pipes survived for long (owners would weld spokes inside their chambers as reinforcements), or were just discarded after the first ride on a set of crossovers!

Warren

 

My friend had heard they tended to last about 100 miles but that sounded like hyperbole so I didn't repeat it.

Thanks for all that Warren. My friend has a spare set of pipes hanging up on a wall - I'll take a closer look next time I stop by. It's sitting between a street-registered 998R and a green frame 750SS. I stop by as often as possible.

 

Thanks for sharing your experience about the TZ750. The 700cc vs. 750cc discussion reminded me of another similar story.

I recently read an article in Motocross Action Magazine, 1992 YAMAHA WR500: HOW THE “AIR HAMMER” BECAME THE “MAYTAG”. I found it interesting that Doug Dubach raced the 1989 AMA Outdoor Motocross 500cc Nationals, along with Micky Dymond and Steve Lamson, on an Ohlins-kitted Yamaha YZ360. You’d think that giving up 140cc of displacement would be a big deficit to overcome. But those open class bikes were so gnarly and difficult to ride fast, it was more about managing speed (so as not to overshoot jumps) and rider energy/ fatigue than anything else. So a YZ360 could theoretically be competitive against bigger bore bikes depending on the track (we’re talking motocross here, not open desert racing).

Of course the WR500 wasn’t as competitive as the water cooled, power valve equipped Kawasaki KX500 or Honda CR500 in the showrooms where it really mattered. But when prepared for professional racing, it was as competitive as anything else because it was more about the rider and their ability to withstand two 30 minute motos after having raced the 250cc class the same day also. It was very physically demanding. Performance was all about rider comfort/ confidence and that usable area under the curve.

 

If the bike I watched was the OP’s, it hammered at $39K.

 

Sorry the thread is getting so off track but..

I still own a 1987 husky WR 430 (enduro version). The wide powerband and lower peak power make it so easy to ride even when it is slick. I've owned several open class two strokes over the years and the ones with big power were very difficult to get around a track fast. But playing with your buddies was to fun. If they got behind you, you would shoot the mud cannon at them.

I own a tz250 and still occasionally race it. Even though it is the coolest bike I have ever owned, if the values of these get completely stupid and parts get crazy high I could see myself selling it. I used to want a 500 or 750 two stroke road racer but I have lost interest because they are too valuable to race for me. Even though the later 500s were faster I have always thought the TZ750 was the ultimate.