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I need a new handgun...lets talk guns today. :D

Discussion in 'General' started by Kris87, Mar 17, 2010.

  1. Jedb

    Jedb Professional Novice :-)

    They changed their minds about 80% lowers. I can see some logic behind that decision.
    3-D printed
    Plastic
    Bad home machine job
    etc.

    You and I both know the 80% workaround is a way to avoid records on the books, for whatever reason it need not be on the books.
     
  2. Tristan

    Tristan Well-Known Member

    I just don't get why you'd want to do this... is it worth the tax stamp to simply have a stock vs. a brace? At least until they make braces illegal...
     
  3. speedluvn

    speedluvn Man card Issuer

    After my first approved SBR, I'm seriously considering going the SBR route for another AR-Pistol because I like short rifles. That rifle stock feels much better than a brace, to me. My understanding is that with an AR-pistol your length of pull can/should not be any longer than 13.5 inches. Not designed to be shouldered. ( If I'm wrong, could someone please cite a link) If AR-Pistols are banned I wont have to worry cause I'll be ahead of the game and have already moved beyond pistol braces.
     
  4. Jedb

    Jedb Professional Novice :-)

    I have a blade styled brace on my AR-Pistol. A Mag-pul on my SBR (300blk).
    The SBR feels much better with a cheek weld. The SBR feels much better on the crook of my shoulder than the blade.

    Not sure if it's $200 stamp worthy on its own, but coupled with the short barrel, it's worth it.
     
  5. I don’t disagree. I was commenting on the way they seem to change their minds, or the interpretation changes, on a daily basis about shit in general.
     
  6. Jedb

    Jedb Professional Novice :-)

    The problem (IMO) with the ATF is that they can't keep up with the technical changes to firearms (in an attempt to thwart their rules) and as a result, are neither consistent, nor timely with their interpretations of stuff. I think the ATF also mixes intent with letter of the rules they enforce. An 80% lower is against the intent of a non-serialized firearm, but it's not against the letter. Again, on the fringes though, sometimes intent and letter blend into some pretty grey areas.

    I've not read about the 80% lower interpretations, nor the Suppressor via Form-1 stuff, as work's been full gas since December.
    I do know that multiple manufacturers of the pistol braces did NOT follow proper protocols and due the work required to get ATF sign off.
    As a result of multiple manufacturers selling them without the proper letter of OK from the ATF, the ATF dropped the hammer on the class/category of item.
    IMO, the industry's fault for poor self-policing and we all saw it coming.

    I'm guessing that's what happened with the Form-1 suppressor stuff, or that folks generally thought "I've applied, so I'll drill the holes and use it while I wait"
    which is a violation. Form 1, then approval, then drill. #duh

    I'm not sure on the 80% stuff. Assuming the AR platform but it seems weird to me to do an 80% lower (off-books) and then directly register it with the ATF. #wtf?
    Unless availability of normal lowers is so tight or has become prohibitively expensive.

    Either way, not my circus nor monkeys, and I'm still looking for anyone with real world experience doing a form-1 suppressor.
     
    Gorilla George likes this.
  7. I agree and I think that is the problem. “Intent” is up to personal interpretation. And when it comes to laws that have penalties, it is wrong to leave anything up to personal interpretation.

    IMO, if it is to the letter…then it is legal.

    If the ATF has a problem with peoples intentions somehow skirting around their letter of the law, then they need to change the lettering.
     
  8. It really shouldn’t be this difficult or confusing. It should be like WERA’s rules.

    “To be categorized as a pistol the barrel length must be less than ____ and may only have a brace that is ____”.

    “A hand stop may be used but it must only extend from the barrel ___cm and may not be perpendicular”.

    So on and so forth for all the rules for firing rate, total length, modifications allowed, so on and so forth.

    Then, at the end, have a statement that says “This document includes all of allowances for firearms. If it does not state you can, then you cannot” or something like that.
     
  9. Wheel Bearing

    Wheel Bearing Professional low sider

    The flaw in your logic is assuming there is any rhyme or reason to anything the government does. :crackup:
     
  10. deathwagon

    deathwagon Well-Known Member

     
  11. Valid point. :D

    Hell I have never understood the logic in any of this shit. What does it matter if a “pistol” has a brace or not?

    What does it hurt? All it does is improve accuracy and make it harder to conceal; you would think they would want that.
     
  12. redtailracing

    redtailracing gone tuna fishin'

    These are pretty much my thoughts. I've shot both SBRs and pistols and I just don't see it as worth it. And not even because of the $200 tax stamp. Like I said before, it's not worth it to me for the gov to have documented record of what I own simply so I can fit a stock. For everything in my safe currently, they can't definitively say "we know you own x" without a search warrant and physically laying eyes on it themselves. At most they can say "we have records that indicate you once purchased x" but what I've done with said firearm since is not something they're privy to, at least not without further investigation, requiring a warrant or at least probable cause, etc. Title II stuff changes all that. They can come knock on my door anytime and say "we know you own x and if you claim otherwise, then that just means you committed a crime by transferring ownership without proper documentation." No thanks. Like I said, I'll do it with a suppressor because there's no alternative option. But that's it.

    And yea, the 80% form 1-ed into an sbr makes zero sense to me unless you just love making your own stuff (which is plausible but probably only the case the minority of the time). I built an AR at the height of Covid supply chain issues in the gun industry and the lower was one of the easiest parts I found to source, even then. Cost isn't valid either. You can buy a good quality stripped lower for under $100. So that whole ordeal is weird to me.
     
  13. redtailracing

    redtailracing gone tuna fishin'

    Will never happen. ATF doesn't make laws, they only enforce them. And current laws, as you and Jed pointed out, do not cover advancements in technology because the NFA is from the 30s. The people who make laws don't care about said details like the AFT nor do they care to waste time on legislation that provides clarification. Which leaves us where we are now, the ATF making "interpretations" of laws that are no longer necessarily applicable to advancements in technology. And that's probably where we'll stay for awhile.
     
    Gorilla George likes this.
  14. Tristan

    Tristan Well-Known Member

    Logic shmogic... They don't care if it has a brace or not...just can't have a stock and still be a pistol. Never mind that the (currently) legal braces are just slim, uncomfortable stocks.
    Next one I build I'm just gonna put a foam sleeve over the buffer tube and skip the $50 brace
     
  15. Jedb

    Jedb Professional Novice :-)

    We differ on the tax stamp for SBR. It comes down to perceived preference for the stock vs. the ability to avoid scrutiny. Neither are wrong, just differ.

    I do believe there are some folks that just like to make their own stuff, but that seems like a small subset of gun owners and between jig, tools, and time, it somehow doesn't seem worth it to me.
     
  16. :stupid:

    I can see how building your own shit would be cool. It just isn’t something I care to do or spend the time on.

    Guns are the same as bikes for me. I never cared about working on them or knowing how to build them; I just want to play with them. I’ll do some bolt-on mods if it isn’t too time consuming, but that’s it.
     
  17. sanee

    sanee Well-Known Member

    not sure if i would sbr an ar anytime soon as braces for ar's are pretty good, usability and looks wise but for an ak theres no substitute for that classic wood stock
     
  18. fastfreddie

    fastfreddie Midnight Oil Garage

    Sure there is...just have an unfortunate chainsaw incident and "ta-da", it's now a pistol. Or, maybe you and it fell out of a tree and some "limbs" got broken. Smooth and shape the remains of that chopped wooden "brace" to your liking.
    Now that it's more of a pistol, let's get rid of some of that extraneous metal sticking out the front to balance it out.
    I mean, who wants a pistol with a 16" barrel?

    Oh dear. You didn't pay someone $200 for an "official approval" to fix your broken tool?
    What business is it of theirs anyway?
    It's all bullshit, and we know it.
     
    Sabre699 and Gorilla George like this.
  19. Tristan

    Tristan Well-Known Member

    finally got to the range near my new place, and it's a good one... $10/hour weekday afternoons, good ammo prices (for local), ok to shoot steel case ammo, and they don't mind rapid fire! They have some fancy video system I'll have to try next time.
     
    Gorilla George likes this.
  20. That’s cheaper than mine. Mine is $15 for an hour. That includes 3 targets.

    But you get every 10th visit free. So I get at least one free trip every 3 weeks or so.
     

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